Lower Back Problems

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Lower Back Problems

Postby mkgil » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:15 pm

In the ski fitness thread, Biowolf and Piggyslayer had an interest in resolving lower back problems. I presume that means for skiing and possibly squatting, since squatting is an excellent way to strengten the hams, quads, and lower back. I thought a separate thread might draw some useful contributions.

My wife and I own a medical pain clinic so I'm professionally involved with knee and low back rehab among various other conditions. Personally, my interest stems from my own advanced degenerative disc disease. I'm 58, but don't intend to give up backpacking, skiing, or weight lifting.

In my opinion, the best way to strengthen the spinal erectors if you already have a low back problem, is a reverse hyperextension. (Piggyslayer will recognize this as a favorite of Louie Simmons at Westside.) If you don't belong to a commercial gym that has this apparatus, set it up this way in your home gym: use a high work bench, adjusted with blocks if necessary so that it comes to the juncture between upper thigh and torso. When you lie across the bench, your upper body is supported by the bench, and your legs form a right angle to your torso while your feet just barely rest on the floor. Hold something with your hands like the sides of the work bench to stabilize your torso, and raise your legs until they are in line with your body and parallel to the floor.

As you get stronger add resistance in the form of ankle weights. At some point you'll need more weight; use a rope looped through some weight plates, and slip the loop over your feet. Since you can't go any higher than parallel to the floor, you won't bang your shins.

If you're starting with some serious back problems, the first thing to do is get examined by a physician knowledgeable about sports medicine. Then, if cleared by your physician, work up to the reverse hyperextension by lying face-down on the floor. With head lifted off the floor, raise the right arm and left leg as high as your can. Lower the raised arm and leg and raise the left arm and right leg. (Physical therapists will recognize the move pioneered by Robin McKenzie.) Both the floor move and the reverse hyperextension keep the spine in a supported positon for safety.

Like some others on this forum, I'm skeptical of the overuse of supporting belts. They do, however, have their place. When I ski, I use the Valejo semi-soft belt tightened enough to give some stabilization to my back. I also use a belt when squatting. Among sports conditioning experts there is controvery about whether more stability is provided by going beltless and sucking in the stomach hard when squatting, or by using a weight lifting belt and pushing the stomach against the belt. Paul Chek espouses the former position. Most strength trainers like a belt. I use a belt when squatting.

Squatting, where to start? This is a massively complex issue. I don't think there is anything superior for the quads, glutes, hams, low back, hips, knees, and ankles--if they're done correctly. In our clinic, of every 50 people who could benefit from them, we teach it to only one or two folks. Most folks will get in trouble with it unless they do the months of preperatory work on back, hips, knees, and ankles first. Then they need an experienced coach or trainer to assess their execution.

For those who already squat--keep doing it until you die. If you do back squats, use the manta ray; if you do front squats, use the sting ray. In the fore/aft thread I gave a web site where you could view them. BTW, I advocate rock bottom, butt to the ground, squats for maximum benefit--after months of slow progression and presuming relatively sound knees.

If this subject is of interest to others than Piggyslayer, BigE, and Biowolf, I hope this monograph :oops: is a useful starting point. If not, it'll languish to the slow death it deserves, and I hope I haven't strained anyone's patience.

Michael
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ahh - back pain

Postby John Mason » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:18 pm

I had chronic back pain for years. When it would flare up I would not be able to move my right foot forward more than about 3 inches without shooting pains down the right side of my leg to my knee.

Fearing disc issues I put off going to a doctor about it till I took up skiing and decided after having major issues on some camps to get to the bottom of it. (is that a guy thing to not go to the doctor)

I went to a physiatrist and they quickly pinpointed the problem. Since the pain shot down the side of my leg that nerve traces to one of the back support muscles right over my kidney and not the discs. Usually disc based back pain goes down the back of my leg. In my case it's because my feet rolled inward which caused my lower back to curve forward (at the tail bone) more than is normal. This increased curvature set up those muscles to be in a chronic spasm mode. I was prescribed foot orthotics which I promptly got. Within a couple of weeks my back pain ceased and I have not had a reoccurance.

Now I kick myself for not going to a doc earlier.

As they say - it all starts in the feet. If that's off, then it's all off.

Oh, as a side note, I had started to get some improvement by doing 12 back specific exercises that really strengthen the core. While that improved things I still had flare-ups untill I got the foot orthotics.
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Lower Back

Postby Biowolf » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:53 pm

Thanks Michael for all the information. Could you list the address of the site re: squats ?
My back is always sore and always has been. But nothing effects it as much as skiing. Even sidestepping effects it. One of several problems is my right SI joint. Any input ?
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Postby mkgil » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:38 pm

Thanks for sharing your experience, John. I suspect a lot of us have anatomical or medical problems to overcome to ski the way we want.

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Re: Lower Back

Postby mkgil » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:05 pm

Biowolf wrote:Thanks Michael for all the information. Could you list the address of the site re: squats ?
My back is always sore and always has been. But nothing effects it as much as skiing. Even sidestepping effects it. One of several problems is my right SI joint. Any input ?


One of the web sites where you can view the manta ray and sting ray is: http://www.adfit.com

For the SI joint: I'd recommend the Valeo belt. Not the weight lifting belt they make, that would be too uncomfortable. You can see which belt I'm talking about here: http://www.painreliever.com/valeobackbrace.html Wearing it under your ski jacket should result in much less soreness at the end of a ski day.

For rehabing the SI joint, the ideal combination would be an osteopathic physician familiar with sports medicine and a physical therapist who also has experience dealing with athletes. The DO can do whatever soft tissue or direct manipulation, trigger point injections, etc, that are called for. S/he can also write the orders for the physical therapist so you can learn the therapeutic stretching and resistance exercises that are called for.

Now, when my SI joint is "out," by doing some slow rotational stretching, my vertabrae gently slide back into place without the need for adjustment from a physician or chiropractor.

What you're eventually aiming for is strength throughout the abs, obliques, and spinal erectors coupled with good ROM in flexion, extension, and rotation. Some exercises/stretches will get you there, some will hurt you worse. I wouldn't squat until you get the SI ready for it.

Hope this gets you started, Biowolf.

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Lower Back

Postby Biowolf » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:29 pm

Thanks again, Michael.
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Postby Rusty Guy » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:19 pm

I know of one contributing factor to lower back pain in many middle aged adults.........being 100 lbs overweight.
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Postby Hobbit » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:24 pm

I am only 97 lbs overweight :D
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Postby mkgil » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:51 am

Rusty Guy wrote:I know of one contributing factor to lower back pain in many middle aged adults.........being 100 lbs overweight.


An extremely important factor. That's the first thing we address at our clinic. I didn't think to factor it into this thread because we're all athletic skiers with exactly the same waist size we had at 18. :lol:

But Rusty has a good point. What have some of you done to lose unwanted weight? (No divorce jokes, please.) I know that you got rid of 15 pounds, John. How did you do it?

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Postby Harrison » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:27 pm

i bike race for most of the year (constantly in a bad position for my back)

i find that the more yoga/stretching i do, the better my back feels
skinny skiers unite
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Back pain

Postby Biowolf » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:59 pm

Strangely, The more yoga I do the sorer my back gets.
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mkgil 15 so far

Postby John Mason » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:59 pm

Oh, the weight just started coming off when I started skiing. I could stand to lose another 15. That'd put me about 190 which would be pretty good for me.

That first season that started in March 03, where I skied every month thru August, I lost about 10. Then the other 5 came off by the end of the year. Been pretty stuck for a while now. But I got 17 more ski days in the next 40 days coming up so hopefully another 5 will come off.

So far when some has worked off, it's been staying off. So, I'm not really doing anything other than I'm more active than I was.

One downfall of progressing in skiing is that you don't work as hard. So, I'll probably have to actually watch what I eat and add more elipitic and weights to get down to the 190.
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Postby piggyslayer » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:08 pm

My few words on lower back problems:

I have discovered that gym exercises I do to strengthen my obliques help with my lower back and when I do them regularly I have fewer or no lower back problems.
I do typically two types of exercises for oblique: side bends and waist twists.

I do both with resistance/weights but I use long sets about 30 reps per set.
I do side bends with dumbbells.
I do waist twists pulling a cable with arms outstretched kneeling completely down so my butt is resting on my feet and my hips are locked so there is no movement anywhere from my lower body. I have never seen anyone doing waist twists this way, but I find this exercise effective.
I use far more resistance than in typical abs workout when working on obliques and I think this creates the overload allowing my spinal joints to strengthen.

Here is why I think it helps (mkgil, I would love to read your comments).

Side bending in addition to obliques involves several muscles in the lumbar region e.g. psoas major, quadratus lumborum which play role in stabilizing the spine in the lumbar region. In addition there is bunch of muscles on the spine itself which are involved in side bending called intertransverse muscles.
Waist twist involves psoas major (above) as well as muscles which are attached diagonally across the spinous processes in "chevron-like" pattern called transversospinalis (they can also be used in side bending). I believe these muscles have critical role in stabilizing the spine and they get stronger with waist twists.

I found then when my lower back hurts I cannot do any of the lower back exercises, nor can I do side bends. But I can do waist twists and they help in getting my lower back in form again.

One more point ( think important) above spine muscle groups (both transversospinalis and intertransverse) when co-contracted will result in spine extension and most of the ruptured disks injuries are, I think, due to lifting something heavy with the back curled (flexed-forward as opposed ot extended-back).
At the same time this helps in achieving balance (typically we have weaker muscles which extend the spine than those that flex it).

This is sort of indirect approach to lower back, but it works for me.

I EDITED THIS FOR CONTENT TO PROVIDE MORE INFO WHY I THINK THESE EXERCISES HELP ME.

Robert
Last edited by piggyslayer on Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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pain

Postby Biowolf » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:57 pm

PS, can you please describe both exercises in detail ? Thanks.
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Postby jclayton » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:36 am

I would be interested in some opinions on abdominal exercises . I have always heard ( having come from a martial arts background ) that a large number of reps just using body weight is more effective than using extra weights . Also for core strength use an unstable base to sit or lie on , i.e. swiss ball or those funny knobbly rubber cushions . I was told that the muscle fibres in this group didn't respond in the same way as , say , biceps or quadriceps . I am talking about working for strength and stamina rather than size or six pack profiles .
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