What Is Skiing Really About?

[Guest]

What are you guys talking about and why does it matter. It's just skiing! You stand on your feet and you tell them where you want to go. Going through hinges, counterbalancing etc... sounds interesting but it takes what is simple and turns it into a quagmire. I couldn't even picture in my mind what you are talking about in the Upper Body/Lower Body ? Countering Actions thread as I am not that analytical nor do I care to be. You sound just as bad as the PSIA group trying to make skiing this ultra-elite sport that is so difficult to get good at. Stop It!!!!!!!!!! If you are a professor in the field you would want to understand the depth and meaning of what you are talking about but not the general public.

Go back to the idea of KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid! What is skiing? A wonderful lateral movement sport much like dance, soccer, basketball, tennis that went it is done right has beautiful flowing rhythmical movements. It allows you to use gravity to pull you down the hill and you get to play with it by going as fast or slow as you want by managing its pull with the shapes of the turns you make. It's the freedom of floating down the hill like water flowing in a stream feeling light as a feather using your skis as tools to take you where you want to go while singing a song of joy.

That's what skiing should be about not a search for the perfect position, stance, alignment, turn shape, drill, carve, skid, nonskid, steering, non steering, edging, non edging, weighting, unweighting and I could go on and on. It's about playing, having fun, feeling different movements, stances, turns, the way the snow feels under your feet, the noise your skis make on the snow in a turn, the wind rushing by your face, feeling light on your skis & not heavy like an earthmover, beautiful scenery and did I mention having fun! I could also go on an on. I have never felt that there are any bad turns on a ski hill as long as someone is making it down the hill and having fun, just more efficient ones.
For those of you that are teachers in this forum you must remember that above all else and for those of you that are learning you must learn to explore.

I don?t go down the hill worrying if my canting is right or if my counter is correct I go down the hill moving like I do in my other sports and low & behold a strong carved turn will happen every twenty, forty, or fifty yards and all of the other things that I need to be doing will already be happening correctly because those movements are already ingrained in my movement patterns. It took over 30 years of , skiing, being coached, racing, teaching and coaching to understand this and now I can share it with my fellow skiers in a couple of hours. You need to be a big kid as you learn, trying new movements and playing while you do it just like you did as a child. You will find that some movements will work smoothly and efficiently while others will not. Which ones do you want to continue to use?

Teachers don't need to teach students new movements in skiing (but they have been erroneously taught to) you have to adapt the movements your students make all day long to being on snow and their skiing. You need to explain to even the top expert how their skis, boots and poles are actually tools and how they are designed to assist them on the hill along with working with the normal movements they use in their everyday locomotion.

You must teach the tactics of working with the hill and how it affects them as skiers when they don?t. How using their peripheral vision will help them feel that they are going at a slow controlled speed instead of looking at their feet and feeling out of control as the ground speeds by and they cannot see where they are going. How they can use the terrain to their advantage, the need to make subtle adjustments in stance and turn shape when going over a knoll into steeper terrain etc...

The normal skier or even racer for that matter does not have a clue that if you do not adjust your stance slightly forward when going over that knoll the hill is going to shift you into the back seat instead of back to a centered position whether you want it to or not. The US Alpine Ski Team has been a prime example of this lack of tactical knowledge. They also don't realize that if they continue with the same turn shape that gravity is going to take them for a ride. They just know that for some reason every time that they do go into new terrain they suddenly go out of control and it scares the crap out of them making them ski defensively. The same thing happens in moguls.

By the time a person is an intermediate or advanced skier they have a clue about turning, shifting weight (a term I detest), edging and balancing albeit for 80% of them poorly. They are uncertain of how to put it all together and that comes from one place. That place is standing perpendicular to the hill no matter how steep it gets or nothing that you try to teach them about being more efficient will ever work as the feet, ankles, legs, boots and skis will never work properly if you are not using them like you are standing or running on a flat field.

In another thread this evening I read about the case of a young woman and the problems she had in her skiing. People talked about edging properly, less steep terrain, boot alignment, etc... and not once did anyone say we need to cover some tactical ideas with you so you can understand how more efficient skiing works. Number one do you understand how your equipment is designed to work and number two do you know where your break is on the ski and how to make a hockey stop? She had classic signs of not knowing anything about the above and you wanted to teach her something different about her skiing! How?

It is hard to move forward and to try to teach someone something new if they do not have an understanding of the basics. Give them the basics; tell them how the blending of a balanced stance, proper rotary, efficient pressure changes and appropriate edging skills lead to rhythmical movements on skis. Let them know about tactics, help them to feel confident on their skis and they will make significant advances in their technique. Who gives a crap about little toe/big toe this, counter that, javelin this, balance drill that, when if the student has an understanding of how their equipment works and by using it tactically the way it is designed to be used those movements come naturally.

It is keeping it simple when you ask them if they play soccer, basketball, tennis or if they dance and does skiing ever feel like that to them. If it doesn't than go help them make it feel like those sports because when it does this sport is so much more fun! Give them a chance to feel good about themselves and what they are doing. Don't fill them up with drills and technical information as that is what all the other instructors have done and they will appreciate your teaching so much more. They will want to ski more and not get frustrated that they are never improving because if they don't know the basics and tactics they won't. I for one try to let people guide themselves to better skiing by letting them learn what movements are stronger and more efficient. Their body will tell them what is right or wrong not me.

I also don't understand what the big deal is about learning to make a wedge or not as I use it all over the mountain at various times in a ski day, you just have to understand the difference between guiding the legs toward each or in the same direction. I also don't give a hoot about steering i.e.; rotary movements as there can be a lot or virtually none depending on the type of turns you are making. I like to feel my skis sliding on the snow in what I consider a soft or subtle carve and not a complete race carve every turn. I understand that a great skier is lazy and will not need to overdue any movements when carving but that is not a picture that the normal skier sees when they watch the other people on the hill. They see the people that are doing things wrong, not right, as those visuals are off in the bowls and mimic those movements which are inefficient and off balance. Good visuals are what is needed not whether a wedge is proper or not or if a person is using a tiny bit of correct rotary in their turn shape.

As far as carving goes it takes a ton of strength to handle the forces that are created in a pure carved turn and most of the people that come to the hill on a given day are no where near in the shape that is needed to carve at high speeds all day long. They just want to be able to go down the hill feeling comfortable, in control, avoid a serious crash or injury and look good doing it. Working with the hill instead of fighting with it along with understanding how to use the equipment they are on goes a long way toward achieving those goals.

You hold up Bode as the new ski king just like the ski king before him and on an on and where does it get everyone other than more confused. I don?t want to ski like Bode or any other World Cupper unless I am on the race hill and then I can only ski as athletically as my body and conditioning will allow. Bode is a phenomenal athlete with great reflexes that really skis like crap until he gets on his feet and moves athletically instead of always fighting from behind. He did not start winning more consistently until he made that subtle adjustment forward in his stance and started working with the hill instead of against it and when he falls back into his old technique I cringe at the danger he puts his body in as he goes wind milling of the course at 80 MPH.

Each person is built differently and will have certain movement patterns that only their body will allow them to do. For those outside of the norm a certain amount of canting and alignment will be needed and you should recognize when that is appropriate but it is not the first thing that should be addressed as I have stated above there are others. It is fun to see skiers that have been told that they need this or need to change that and when they learn how their equipment works and how the hill can be a friend that things just click naturally with a little guidance. They can finally understand what they are supposed to be doing instead of trying to do something and wondering why. They do smile, they do have fun and what is most important they want to go out on the hill more.

It used to be that you had to work at it to make a perfect turn and now you really do not have to do much at all. The new skis are fun and make skiing efficiently so much easier but they have their limits like any tool. Most of the time it is enjoyable to not have to work so hard but after awhile it can be awfully boring and I will bring out a pair of original shaped skis, since all skis had a side cut built into them it was just never big enough that teachers would talk about it and go out to work for those perfect turns I reached for years ago. It is a fun change and it is nice to feel how quickly those skis can go from turn to turn compared to the new skis!

For those that read this missive I thank you for your time an attention and I hope this will generate some positive discussions on better skiing! As I know that what I say will not be accepted by everyone and shouldn?t as it is always ok to disagree with others opinions (unless your George Bush) sorry Harrison you left me no choice. I only ask that you open your mind and explore some of the areas that I have talked about whether you are a teacher or skier that is trying to improve.

For those of you that are wondering who the h*** is this longwinded blowhard and who let him on here. I am the person that had someone that I did not really know come up to me out of the blue many years ago when I was fairly new in Park City and gave me the nicest compliment anyone has ever given me. He told me that in all of his years in the ski industry that I had the best feet on snow that he had ever seen and asked me to work with him on a ski testing program that he had been developing. I was the head of Peter K?s on hill ski testing for many years after that and he still asks me to come out and test for him as he continues to value my opinion and my feet. I don?t think I have ever really thanked him enough for that compliment or for allowing me to be part of his team for the past 14 years and I would like to publicly thank him today!

Thanks Peter! I look forward to many more years of skiing & friendship to come with you and Sue Ellen.

Sincerely Yours In Skiing

Mark

[Guest]

I wrote the thread above but for some reason it would not take my name.

Skirmastr

[skirmastr]

I was using a capitol S and not all small s when I signed in!

[Bluey]

skirmastr,

"What are you guys talking about and why does it matter. It's just skiing!"

Nice opening broadside......

It was a long diatribe but IMHO it was worthwile being said.

Some of the threads aren't of interest to me but I have never expected all of them to be.......and I agree with your comment in respect to the bit about the "hinge".....well...... unless you're already an ......"Expert Skier"....it's beyond me.....probably meant more for the Experts classification that was recently using........

I'm fortunately/unfortunately a "thinking" type person ( albeit slow ) when it comes to what my body needs to do. Once I know/understand what my body is doing ( which for me has been a slow process...) then I can get into the next stage of " intuitively feeling" what it's supposed to be doing/or not doing, with the ultimate aim of controlling the body memory with the Right positive actions.....

My main principle is simply Fun....

If I can come off the mountain feeling i've had fun then I figure I've come out ahead......

In respect to the threads on this forum, I like to come away feeling as if I've got something practical to work on and that its been fun bantering back and forth with such nice people......

I don't expect to always learn anything from everybody's threads...in fact, I take the opposite viewpoint of proactively asking if I want to learn/know something in particular and I'm quite happy to throw in my uneducated opinions if I think I can add a viewpoint from the newbie skier point of view ( read only been skiing for ....dunno...maybe 50 -60 days....who really counts this stuff/who really cares......).


I think that an important consideration is that a lot of folks on this forum have come to it because of the bad ski experiences they had received in the past and that an ephiphany ( Ah Ha Experience ) was reached when PMTS came onto their radar screens. TTS had lost me but PMTS made simple sense.....unfortunately a lot of unnecessay baggage has come with the refugees from TTS....but hey, if all the flowers in the field were the same colour it would be a pretty boring world..........


So to all those "unheard" newbie voices out there.....well, if you want to know something/anything this is certainly one of the places to come......but be prepared for the usual woffle and the soap-opera/antics etc........in the end its just like.... Family......

If anyone is bored with the threads on this forum ...hey, then simply start your own....I'm sure any fresh blood will be more than welcome......


In summing up.....you can ignore all of the above if you like....... and to answer (lowercase)skirmastr's original question of what's it all about ( Alfie....) in a more pithy way ....it's about fun....if you're not having fun...its your responsibility........

Me?.........I can't hang around any longer......I'm off to have some fun working on those hindu squats......


Bluey

[Rusty Guy]

It is hard to move forward and to try to teach someone something new if they do not have an understanding of the basics. Give them the basics; tell them how the blending of a balanced stance, proper rotary, efficient pressure changes and appropriate edging skills lead to rhythmical movements on skis.

Great post!

I do want to wish you good luck if you try to convince the folks here that skiing involves the elements you describe.

[Ott Gangl]

>>>>I'm fortunately/unfortunately a "thinking" type person ( albeit slow ) when it comes to what my body needs to do.<<<

You are definitely a candidate for some Jaegermeister, Bluey.

....Ott

[piggyslayer]

Skirmastr

To put is simply (KISS), I disagree with your statements.

In parallel thread (which I think you are actually referring to)
Hierarchical nature of PMTS movements
clearly demonstrates that PMTS starts simple (as simple as relax and tip) and then introduces more refined concepts progressing from simple to more elaborate.
Relax and tip is the foundation and all people on this forum know it.
How can you claim that the basics and KISS are missing in PMTS or on this forum???

If skiing is so simple as you guys are painting it, why there are so few skiers who pass intermediate stage?

Also how can anyone argue with you that wrong is wrong (like wedge turn) if you do not want to use or have anything to do with science? The argument will be resolved based on what? And, no please lets not discuss wedge any more.

I agree that skiing is about fun. For some fun is simple, just being on snow, for others fun is being good on it, and yet for others understanding the movements defines the fun.
Fun is - what fun is for me and not what someone tells me fun is.

As you can infer New England has no snow and I am cranky.

[SkierSynergy]

[SkierSynergy]

Whew!! That was kind of like coughing up a forum equivalent of a fur ball. Glad you got it off your chest.

[tanman]

Hi,
I am a man of not many words. But, what I can say is that PMTS is OOH so simple! What you have have to get your brain around ie skimastr, is that what the subjects talk about on this forums, always relate to something occurring in the Kinetic Chain. The are all derived fromt the proper foot movements and releases ie/eg tipping to LTE. It is such a simple move. But, because it is created at a the point where it will have the most effect. It causes all lot more biomechanical reactions to occcur, higher up the order. They are by-products of a simple move of RTE. They are totally involuntary, if you do them correctly.

I have skied for over 20 years , this system has simplified my ski thinking and improved my technique to levels I thought I'd never achieve. And I have had plenty of experience from the TTS lessons , but they were all a waste of timeamd money,ABSOLUTELY. Until, I found PMTS. SIMPLE ! EFFECTIVE ! & SO MUCH FUN ! It has also revived a few careers ina couple of instructirs that I know. Their knees wre shot to death , but the PMTS system allowed them to continue teaching.

Harald, love your work!

[Harrison]

skiing is about what you do in the air and sliding rails

[Jim Ratliff]

Hey skirmaster.

I'm just curious, when you learned to play tennis did you ever worry about things like keeping your head down and your eye on the ball, or about getting your hands back and your feet set before you hit the ball, or do you just run over and swing? What about hitting the ball at the top of the bounce? What about all of the nuances of learning to serve?

In basketball (if that was one of your sports) did you ever learn to concentrate on getting your shoulders square to the basket before shooting? How about pronation of the hand when you shoot? Follow through? Reverse rotation of the ball (created by pronation) so that the shot is softer when it hits the rim? What about not crossing your feet on defense (mostly). Were you ever forced to practice shuffles in a "good defensive posture" to gain muscle memory and learn proper (or at least accepted) movement patterns?

I really can't think of many sports that anyone just runs out and does even halfway well at without some analysis of what works well. However, that doesn't mean that lots of people can't enjoy tennis by just going out and bashing the ball back and forth; and lots of people enjoy skiing at some level without ever wondering or caring what they could do to get better.

Others want to discuss and ponder and learn.

[John Mason]

The context - PMTS is simple - but there is a recent context to these threads.

My son was making nice parallel turns with just the lighten and tip (not diverging) the inside ski while standing on the outside ski after 3 hours today. That is the entry side of PMTS.

Recently, though, lots of us were at a PMTS instructor camp where other tools to control edging were introduced. Counter and counter balance and carving the top of the turn, moving the pressure graditant up the turn and removing it from the bottom of the turn are still PMTS and also just good high level concepts whatever the skiing background or "religion".

Lots of the info from that camp where even PSIA National Demo team members were being challenged and learning stuff is a whole different audiance than the bulk of people just getting into PMTS.

So if it's helpful and you want that information grab and play with it. If it's not interesting or confusing or not useful to you, then just skip those threads.

My son wouldn't be ready for much of what was presented at that camp for some time to come. He may just be happy to be a cruising blue slope person and never care to make high level turns.

I'm not sure how successful people would be just playing on their skis to get to those high level turns, however. The movement patterns, like much of skiing, are not "innate" or "obvious", but have to be shown, practiced, and folded into your muscle memory and your skiing. It won't happen for the vast majority of people by just doing "mileage".

As my racquetball coach loved to remind us in his classes, the adage "practice makes perfect" is a lie and the truth is "perfect practice makes perfect". Aimless mileage just can lock in bad habits no matter how playfully executed.

If you disagree with that last two paragraphs, then perhaps our picture of high level turns are not the same.

If the bar is low, then this is all irrelevant.

[skirmastr]

It is nice to see people reading the thread and sending back thoughtful responses! That is what I hoped for! I will spend some time this evening on answering those that have asked me ?'s. Right now I am going to see how the big toe will follow the little toe or is it the other way around. I guess I will try it both ways.

[John Mason]

Yes, a lot about PMTS is the rather simple recognition of this difference. PMTS really hones in on the idea of the stance foot, and how the kinetic chain works.

This is easy to self demonstrate (it's even easier to see this on Carvers).

If you tip your inside ski/carver laterally to it's LTE side while standing on your outside ski/carver, you'll find you get nice matching parallel angles.

But, if you are thinking tip the outside ski, since that is so much easier for your body to do it will invariably overpower any tipping you are doing on your LTE of your inside foot.

The side benifit of the PMTS approach is that the inside ski in a turn is less loaded than the outside ski so we call it the "free foot" and it's easy to make the inside foot do things. The outside foot follows the tipping by just standing on it. Lito Tejada Flores calls this phantom edging in his book. Harald calls this the Phantom Move. Eric an Rob in their book Ski the Whole Mountain also teach this same way of controlling and initiating parallel tipping.

Most skiers, however, ski the opposite way and initiate and tip with their outside leg in an active fashion. Or, they are taught to point with the knees to get their edging. Except for those three books (oh, plus Craig McNeil's book) I have not seen this explicit and simple method for making turns described.