Leg Steering to tighten a Carve - Finally an Answer

PMTS Forum

Postby Rusty Guy » Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:22 pm

No one has suggested should occur.

It has been suggested it does occur, can occur, or may occur.

Harald you seem intent upon guaging in subjective terms. In other words defining what is expert skiing.

I for one am suggesting a ski racer may redirect his or her skis IF it will tighten a line.

Your 10-0 score does vary slightly from one taken at epicski. I assume a few of the participants at epicski are still coaching for you.

Your poll is akin to asking folks at mass to raise their hands in support of abortion.
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Postby Eddy » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:28 pm

Who ever you are you are a sick person, could you look for some help before you post again.
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Postby milesb » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:57 pm

Rusty, just to be fair, the poll was about "options for fun", Harb is talking about performance. The poll could have asked "does flinging your arms around give you more options with which to have fun skiing?" and gotten the same response. In fact, substitute ANY movement and you will get the same response. A better question to ask would be: "Are rotary skills beneficial for 97% of skiing situations?"
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great comment

Postby John Mason » Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:03 pm

great comment MilesB.

Piggykiller - I'm not sure Arc is talking about what you think he is. In his response here he was commenting on going over a bump at a high edge angle so that you find your tips in mid air. (downward from your legs perspective is accross the hill not to the center of the earth) Depending on your body position, simply pressing downward or pulling the feet back may not bring the tips in contact with the snow. This is the specific situation Witherel was talking about. I have never experienced this, but that doesn't mean much. It was just a mental picture I had never had. It would be about the only thing I could make any logic of where pulling a rotary motion might be desired. All the other excuses posted here for rotary either don't accomplish anything logially, or clearly detract from carved skiing.

I don't even know if the theoretical happening of the middle of the ski in contact with the snow and the tips in mid air (while in a high bank) even occurs to the point where simply pulling the foot back wouldn't be a superior way to put the tips back onto the snow.

Arc's little survey on Epic did show most epicer's strong support of rotary just shows that there is indeed a difference in perspectives. MilesB's comment shows a similar thought to what I posted over on Epic.

I recently skied with some PSIA'ers, instructors in fact well known on Epic. On of them at lunch was lamenting the need to get with BB and work on something that had cropped up on video. He had been stemming his turns at the entry consistently in one turn direction and wanted to get this "dialed out" of his skiing. Therein lies the conumdrum. Rotary is so easy for people to do, so ingrained in the PSIA progression, that most skiers do it when they should not and do not have the ability to ski without it.

My question I popped on Epic and I'll repeat here is:

1. is it easier to ski with rotary
or
2. is it easier to ski without rotary

This puts PMTS's perspective more on the table. Rotary is a distraction and a distrubance to skiing.

As I also put on Epic, skis are linear devices meant to scribe arcs in the snow. If you twist or pivot them, they resist this motion naturally and this type of steering can most easily be done when they are unweighted or when they are flat. So what did Diana's V1 analysis segment show for many of the skiers at the PMTS instructor camp? That some were detracting from using their skis the way they were designed by "cheating".

The place to see this unwanted rotation is in the last 1/3 of a turn and the first 1/3 of the next turn. See what you do at transition. In HH's book on page 110 and 111 you see just a perfect transition. The skis do zero rotation at transition, but just one set of clean lines linking up with a new set of clean lines.

The red herring of what do you do if an skier pops in front of you, will you rotate? Who cares if you do? What does this have to do with the habitual unintended rotary at transition that most skiers employ. (Its the very rare skier that skis without rotation or steering at transition. (remember the vids Jay took apart))

A question for the PMTS crowd: How fast a instant emergency turn can you do? (following the red herring a bit further) You can drop an instant strong release.

I'm not sure non-pmts'ers realize how short and quick a turn can be made without resorting to direct rotation. Frankly, if you did just unweight and twist and replant your skis in an emergency, would you find your base of support to resist the new forces wouldn't be there? If you didn't unweight and needed this instant change, what would happen if you just pivoted? (this to me makes a mental picture of going over the top of your handle bars on a bike if you just use your front break)

I'll continue to dodge the crazies out there by the PMTS methods. I'm still looking for the type of turn that I wouldn't use a PMTS type movement pattern to create. Hop turns, nope. Turns in the chutes? Nope. Bumps? Nope.
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Postby piggyslayer » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:33 pm

Piggykiller - I'm not sure Arc is talking about what you think he is. In his response here he was commenting on going over a bump at a high edge angle so that you find your tips in mid air. (downward from your legs perspective is accross the hill not to the center of the earth) Depending on your body position, simply pressing downward or pulling the feet back may not bring the tips in contact with the snow. This is the specific situation Witherel was talking about. I have never experienced this, but that doesn't mean much. It was just a mental picture I had never had. It would be about the only thing I could make any logic of where pulling a rotary motion might be desired. All the other excuses posted here for rotary either don't accomplish anything logially, or clearly detract from carved skiing.


John, I am on the same page, you got to admit that this is the most interesting, however bit marginal, use of steering.

In honor of SCSA we should coin the 97 rule:

97% of skiers will benefit
by spending
97% of their learning time on tipping and carving as opposed to on twisting and steering and
by attempting in
97% of skiing situations to eliminate rotary movements.
Unfortunately
97% of ski instructors is confused about it and reverses the rule.

For most of us on this forum the 2nd and 3rd 97 is a 100. I think that is good.

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Postby Guest » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:45 pm

milesb wrote:Rusty, just to be fair, the poll was about "options for fun", Harb is talking about performance. The poll could have asked "does flinging your arms around give you more options with which to have fun skiing?" and gotten the same response. In fact, substitute ANY movement and you will get the same response. A better question to ask would be: "Are rotary skills beneficial for 97% of skiing situations?"


Point taken, however, I would suggest that wasn't Arc's intent. Who knows?

I simply don't understand the blind obsession here with denying the existence of rotary, steering, redirection, turning,etc., at the recreational level or at the highest levels of skiing.
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Postby Rusty Guy » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:51 pm

me above

Eddy I suppose that was directed towards me. I'll certainly take your sage wisdom under advisement.
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Postby milesb » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:02 am

Rusty, it must be because I'm a crappy skier, but I wonder that too. I can accept that the best skiers try to not do those things whenever possible, but I think that it does happen sometimes.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:44 pm

Miles, rotary skills, like all skiing skills are good to have, even if you never use them. By now you know all the skills I had to lern in my sixty years of skiing. Though I probably don't use 70% of them, I'm glad I have them should I ever need them.

....Ott
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:48 pm

Eddy, no need to be insulting, I didn't see a post of anyone insulting you, so why the vitrol?

....Ott
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:52 pm

>>>97% of their learning time on tipping and carving as opposed to on twisting and steering and
by attempting in
97% of skiing situations to eliminate rotary movements.<<<<

Piggyslayer, not everyone prays at the same altar, there are many ways to ski well, you subscribe to this, they subscribe to that, let them be.

....Ott
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Ott - Holiday Valley

Postby John Mason » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:55 pm

I liked one person's post on Epic. She found that pivoting at transition much harder to learn than lateral tipping to initiate a turn. She paid a "race coach" for this lesson. This just illustrates that people's goals and methods and even basic ideas of acceptable or desiralbe skiing are quite different. And, that's fine. To each their own.

So, you're right. It's a different focus for sure. Or is it just marketing. I keep forgetting.

Holiday Valley is loaded with snow - want to ski some next week? They are opening tomorrow. By Saturday the whole south end will be running plus mardis grais. (spelling).
Last edited by John Mason on Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:11 pm

Nah, our area is opening Friday, I'll just stick here for this year.....Ott
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Postby piggyslayer » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:40 pm

Ott wrote:
Piggyslayer, not everyone prays at the same altar, there are many ways to ski well, you subscribe to this, they subscribe to that, let them be.


I am not forcing anybody to change how they ski. In fact, many of my friends (some very good skiers) I ski with, have no clue about PMTS or tipping, and I have restricted my attempts at their ?education? to a conversation over pizza (no pun intended) after skiing. They are happy with their skiing and I am happy for them.
Would their skiing improve if they focus on tipping and efficient release? Sure!
Are they good skiers without this knowledge? I just said there are.

My feelings are different, however, if you are talking about ski instructors. People come (at least sometimes) to ski instructors to learn and to improve.
PMTS teaching has coined the concept of Single Most Important Movement. The idea is to focus on the most important single aspect which will make the biggest difference in someone?s skiing.
The point is that for 97% this is not rotation, in fact this is probably the Single Least Important Movement for 97% of instructed skiers.

Ott, it is unfair and below the belt for you to use word ?altar? and "pray" as if implying (like many others did on this forum) that PTMS is a cult or religion of sorts and HH is the high priest. I you want to talk science, please do. Do you want to resume the kinesiology discussions again?

Miles, rotary skills, like all skiing skills are good to have, even if you never use them.

You lost you argument after we have seen the 2 videos.
If you have them you WILL use them whether you like it or not.
I know, I still sometimes do :( .
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:30 pm

>>>>Ott, it is unfair and below the belt for you to use word ?altar? and "pray" as if implying (like many others did on this forum) that PTMS is a cult or religion of sorts and HH is the high priest<<<

Oh for crying out loud, piggyslayer, don't read something into a phrase that isn't there. I should have said not everyone puts their money on the same horse. You would probably accuse me of calling you or Harald a horse...

All I was trying to say was different strokes for different folks, and please don't accuse me of being racist.

PMTS is fine with me and really with most everyone else I know it's just not practical with everyone everywhere. Or maybe it is and eventually will take over from the PSIA established criteria, who knows....

Everyone seems to be either defensive or offensive about PMTS. It is, so let it be, I will.

....Ott
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