Leg Steering to tighten a Carve - Finally an Answer

PMTS Forum

Postby Rusty Guy » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:43 pm

Piggyslayer,

I think we have hit on a commonality. Is the ability to "release" the skis via tipping important. It is without a doubt the most important movement in skiing.

Is tipping the skis sufficiently to engage the edges in a pure carve important? Of course.

My point in a nutshell is that there are situations where turning the ski is equally important.

John, when you say "pivot" it's important to understand where the pivot point or axis of rotation is.
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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:15 am

Ott:
Oh for crying out loud, piggyslayer, don't read something into a phrase that isn't there. I should have said not everyone puts their money on the same horse. You would probably accuse me of calling you or Harald a horse...


Who is calling piggy a horse! :) OK, I am sorry and I apologize. You read some of the older "guest" posts on this forum and they should explain why I got so edgy.

Rusty: that is what I wanted to read, that you agree that tipping comes first.
We will slowly work on persuading you about the remaining 3%.
Just kidding. It is totally OK to disagree on some points.

PS. Tipping is not just to release, but I am sure you know that.
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That is a concise description of the different viewpoints

Postby John Mason » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:25 pm

Rusty Guy wrote:Is tipping the skis sufficiently to engage the edges in a pure carve important? Of course.

My point in a nutshell is that there are situations where turning the ski is equally important.

John, when you say "pivot" it's important to understand where the pivot point or axis of rotation is.


Rusty - your nutshell sentence does describe the difference. Active steering/pivoting of the feet is not looked at as equally important at all in the land of PMTS. It's looked at as a stubborn habit to get worked out of one's skiing.
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Postby bud » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:33 pm

this thing is like west side story. There seem to be two gangs fighting over how many believers they can recruit from the ones who are undecided or weak. The funny thing to me is, I am sure both gangs have darn good skiers and that they look and ski very similarly and incorporate the appropriate movements that the conditions or situations demand.

Hey let's have a gang war at a mountain. we could wear gang colors and leather jackets and play some nastalgic music. We could have some races, some bump contests, extreme skiing contests, "go as slow as you can and carve" contests. Yeah Yeah! I can see it now. I am in! my street or yours :twisted: Now which gang do I want to ski for? Hmmmmm?
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No time for Log in

Postby HRH » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:05 pm

Why are you arguing about what stands clearly as the difference between performance skiing and PSIA skiing, understanding and teaching. Let them have their steering, rotary and rotation. We don?t need it.

Our students don?t cry for it and we need not waist our internet moments defending or explaining it. Let them do what they do; we know what works and what skiers want. Most skiers don?t know the difference and I thank God for that because we couldn?t meet the demand if they know that PMTS existed. There are a few thousand skiers that know PMTS EXISTS and they WILL NEVER GO BACK to PSIA lessons.

We have evolved beyond defending what we do to a few PSIA ideologists. The PSIA faction thinks they can hold us back, by continually bringing up old, useless, forgot used up, dead end teaching methods.

They are threatened and intrigued by our next step, which I promise will be as revolutionary as the first.

Have you looked at my earlier post? No one responded to it. It describes the difference in understanding between world cup, PMTS and what PSIA doesn?t grasp about steering and increasing angles. What angles, they don?t use angles, they use steering.

Is this lack of response to the specifics about increasing angles due to a lack of understanding or is it due to the fact that it is so obvious you don?t need to respond? Is it beyond the level of movement understanding for regular skiing, of course? The PSIA boys won?t understand it surely, but what about the PMTS group?

Today I again saw some of their best on the slopes of Copper, I was speachless !! I know they could ski better if they were motivated to, I can only guess they are not. Come on guys its not that hard to ski well!
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Postby bejes » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:16 pm

Its obvious the difference between PSIA/CSIA/ASPI and pmts. I've watched the videos over on epic, and instructors here in aus. Give me PMTS anyday.
On carvers, steering doesn't work, it just shows up your skiing problems. When i get back on skis, I will be aware of any unintentional steering I have been using. I want to eliminate it, not make it part of my 'bag of tricks'.
I spent 5 weeks a few years ago on a dempsey course. After 5 weeks I still didn't know how to turn! Steer the tips around??Shoulder width stance?? And these guys were all level 4 CSIA instructors/examiners... I ski better now just from reading the ACBAES books.

Harald, how can I book for the green level cert in Fernie?
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Postby milesb » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:10 am

Harald, to tell the truth, I couldn't really tell what point you were trying to make in that post, even though everything in it made sense to me. Especially the part about flexing at the end of the turn to even out the pressure. In my opinion, this is the only way to maintain a carve on a very steep slope. But often I go too far, and I don't have any flex left for a clean release.
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Postby bud » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:24 am

question... Your last post, and I can not find it now to reference? but you were talking about the last part of an arc and saying that squaring the hips up was a negative. my question then is how does one ski pulling the inside foot back to minimize lead and not allow the hips to square up? It sounds a little contorted? It seems to me the only way to accomplish this is to have more flexion in the uphill ankle than the downhill. by doing this I am able to keep my hips open. Is this what you are advocating? thanks.
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I'll give it a stab

Postby John Mason » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:14 pm

milesb wrote:Harald, to tell the truth, I couldn't really tell what point you were trying to make in that post, even though everything in it made sense to me. Especially the part about flexing at the end of the turn to even out the pressure. In my opinion, this is the only way to maintain a carve on a very steep slope. But often I go too far, and I don't have any flex left for a clean release.


Roger Kane - Arcmeister on Epic - spent a lot of time on this at the instructor camp. As I understood it in most people's skiing the greatest pressure is at the bottom of the turn. Roger worked with us to make the greatest pressure be at the "side" of the turn, when your skis are in the direction of the fall line. Basically, his goal was to move the whole pressure gradiant up the turn from where most people have it. The pressure you would normally have at the bottom of the turn, because of the active flexion of the downhill ski, is instead used to propell the body into position for the next turn. Because of countering at the top of the new turn, pressure reexerts at the very top of the new turn and is at it's max at the side.

You're square when your over your skis in transition as your hips roll to the countered position at the start of the new turn. So as the skis reengage your already countered at the top of the turn. At the bottom of the turn, your countered the opposite direction. You don't want to be square here, or you'll lose your edges.

So the hips are flowing from one side of the skis oppisite to the rotation of the skis with neutral/square occuring when your directly over the skis when the skis are flat (which means your body is already down the hill because when your skis are flat to the hill, and your straight over them, your actually down the hill already.

All of the coaches at the instructor camp seemed quite focused on this as a goal and we were given many drills and things to work on to feel this and get it into our turns.

This view of active counter at the top of the new turn, instead of letting it happen naturally by facing the hill only in the bottom of the turn, is quite different than how most people are skiing from what I see on the hill.

We also worked on this a lot at the carver camp. I would bet you this ends up in a new PMTS II book.

Now the question is did I understand and transcribe this correctly. I've been working on this a lot and SCSA can check out and see how well it's comming tomorrow.

Jay also covered a lot of this in his UBLB coordination post. None of this detracts from the tipping of the old downhill ski to create the release while extending the new leg. This just increases the edging in a way that is very balanced and strong so your carving continuous arcs.
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Postby piggyslayer » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:07 pm

Maybe this is totally stupid, probably is, but what the heck:
My last days of skiing last days had some icy runs and I was on my soft all mountain skis.
I noticed that the only way to ski (as opposed to skid) on ice for me was to start flexing earlier than normal to make sure I do not overpower the end of my turns. It did work quite well for me and I was really enjoying it, the whole turn was holding ice better, including the initiation. I am quite sure that if I was on my slalom skis I would not had to do that. So I sort of discovered something similar by accident.

Maybe soft skis on ice are actually a good tool to learn better carving movements?
I am going to try it this season again.

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