Ankle / leg strenghth - "ski fitness"

[Bluey]

thanks to all for the constructive replies/feedback.

I agree with JC that jogging is good for strengthening bones and if I was to do it on soft surfaces ( eg running around the local park/oval) then I'm sure this would asisst my general leg muscle strength but I'm kinda after stuff that I can do during my normal Monday to Friday.

Like lots of people, I have a busy schedule so I'm trying to make my existing waking hours move "productive"......for example, on the train, I will do a kinda wall-sit against the train seat and I measure myself to see how many stations the train can pass before the pain in the legs/quads becomes too much......'cause its not till the pain starts that any benefits in leg muscle strength begins to develop......

Also I agree with skier-J, I do try to stand during my commute to work and I do alternating one-legged stands and these really work on my ability to balance and its especailly effective when I try to do it with my eyes closed.......just so that it doesn't look too strange I usually camoflage what my feet are doing by putting my gym back down in such a position at the base of my feet so people on the train can't see the fact that one foot is raised slightly off the ground...I also carry a Walkman with earphones on the train so to the casual observer it appears I am simply listening/enjoying music with my eyes closed.....


Ott, I like your suggestion of exercising by going up flights of stairs carrying a case of beer....... I would never have thought of that one......but I can't see myself doing that around the office building ......

The balance disk has been suggested by Harrison and SCSA and I know others have this as well....but I don't. ....so I'll put this on my list for Santa. I tried making/using a tipping board, like HH has in his Book, but it wasn't very successful for me.....so I didn't perserve with it.... a balance disk is something I could use around my home when I'm doing other stuff like relaxing and watching sport on TV...

The Hindu squats look like a better result for me as I could work on those anywhere during the day whilst in private/alone and also at home when relaxing....thanks for that tip and the description on how to do them.....

And lastly, piggyslayer's and JC comments about imbalance in leg/ankle/foot muscle strength & dynamic body posture whilst skiing are also worthwhile exploring.....I've been toying with similar ideas in relation to dynamic balance.....which is one of the reasons I practice on moving trains which can unexpectedly jolt the body....just like the unexpected jolt which can happen whilst skiing.....I have noticed my ability to balance on one leg impoved but I was also interested to notice that at the moments of imbalance, that there were specific musles which were primary culprits...and specifically the muscles controlling the lateral stabilty of the knee and the ankle......so my thoughts around this are that, although I am trying to build up muscle strength in these specific areas, I am also now coming to the conclusion that a strong conscious focus on those areas whilst trying to stay in dynamic balance may also be a major factor for me...... previously I was always aware of my feet/knees but not to the extent of actively, specifically consciously strongly focusing on them whilst trying to dynamically balance and so trying to strongly control the direction of any reaction ( read lateral movement) they may exhibit whilst trying to regain/move back into balance and the dynamic interplay of upper body movements which seem to compensate for nay imbalance.....I've probably lost you at this point so I'll leave it there.....

I've been given more than enough to go on with by you guys so thanks again for the input....



Bluey

[piggyslayer]

About lower back pains.

I am not an expert, not a personal trainer to give professional advice on the topic so whatever I write- grain of salt reading it.
I as probably everyone else on the planet have also a history of lower back pains and problems and have developed my way of thinking about it, I will share my thoughts here.
I am sure others will contribute because lower back is most people problem .

1. Learning what is the cause of pain may prove to be important.
There can be hundreds if not thousands of reasons for lower back problems, some not obvious, for example lower back problem can be induced by pronated fore-foot. Unfortunately few professionals have training or experience in looking at you as a whole and seeing all possible contributing factors. For example chiropractors are typically educated on spine and adjacent area and know little for example about foot alignment.

2. I strongly believe that almost all of us are not perfect and have various alignment, posture, etc problems. I try to live with what I have taking the following maintenance approaches:
- being active
- improving muscle strength. I believe strong muscles and tendons increase the level to which your body will adopt and correct problems originating in skeletal system. For example, skier with pronated foot should benefit from strong tendons and muscles around his knee, not only for skiing but because regular walking result in such individuals in knee problems, lower back problems, etc.
- minimize the amount of irritation/aggravation of the problem area, for example good mattress and chair with lumbar support to reduce lower back pain.

This maintenance approach obviously assumes that there is nothing major wrong with your lower back.

I have noticed that my lower back problems have been helped with strengthening the abdominal oblique muscles. I exercise obliques on the same day (before) I do squats and I think that keeping these muscles terse and firm reduces changes of back injury when lifting heavy during squat.
When working on abdominal muscles remember that ab-crunches strain your lower back, avoid them, there are other ways to strengthen your abs, for example using ab-crunch machine helps in reducing stress on lower back.

Also remember about balance, abs should not be way stronger than antagonist back muscles.

I apply extra caution when exercising lower back or performing movement which can potentially stress lower back (deadlift, squat, etc):
For example deadlift: I never curl down (or flex my torso) during deadlift, my face looks up and torso is straight and I lift with your butt and hamstrings.
This also applies to lifting any heavy or not object in everyday life.

I do lower back extensions but I do not extend all the way. I only go to the point in which my lower back is horizontal/flat. I go light and many reps on it to improve lower back strength.

Applying (1) and (2) I do not use any belts in any of the heavy lifting, unless I am during ?my lower back hurts period?.

I done some searched and found the following text which is quite inline with what I wrote here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catback.htm

Sorry for being so long, you may say the lower back pain is close to my heart . This was a bit of a hijack of this thread so sorry everyone.

Biowolf, Good luck.
Robert

[BigE]

Powerlifting squat, as you may know involves going quite a good morning and a lot of effort comes from your butt. What is interesting in this movement from ?kinesiology? point of view is that both the knee and hip joints move at the same time so that your quads and hamstrings maintain about constant length. These two co-contract stabilizing the knee and hip joints. Both have tendons which go around your knee and stabilize the knee joint. Strong hamstrings are very important in stabilizing the knee and keeping your knees healthy.

Let me know if you want to discuss any of that, especially the squat.

Just don't go too deep. the stress on the back of the meniscus increases exponentially with depth. 1/4 or 1/3 down is enough. NEVER BELOW PARALLEL!

Just ask my surgeon.

[piggyslayer]

BigE is right, people should be careful with squats. Bad form will get you hurt, good form will make you healthier. Medical profession does not like squat, orthopedists see a lot of people which injured knees, lower backs, etc, they do not see people who are healthy and benefit from squat (these people don?t go to a doctor).

I would suggest not going beyond right angle at the knee joint until you get experienced and are sure what you want to do.
In powerlifting squat (which I like the best) going beyond parallel is actually not possible, you tummy will hit your thighs some 5 degrees before reaching parallel. The other good thing about this type of squat is that the knee does not bend or go forward much, an imaginary vertical line from the knee down will never go beyond the big toe.

The other important safety points relevant to squat:
- if doing wide stance squat point your feet out so that the feet position matches the line drown by bending knee (the same biomechanics which can be used to argue that wedge turns or wide stance turns are bad for your knees).
- Keep the barbell away from the neck. Keeping it close is simply dangerous and is the most common mistake people do.
- Never do jerky movements.
- Do not use soft shoes (typical sneakers are not good), or shoes which are high under heavy weight they will not behave well and you risk knee/ankle injury.
- Start with little weight and progress slowly.

It is best to seek a professional to have a look at your form.

[piggyslayer]

One more observation which came to mind after BigE rightful comment.

For people with knee problem squatting is hard even in the kitchen when you need to pick something up from under the sink.
There is simple trick some folks do not know about. If you have to squat all the way down (to pickup something from the floor, etc) you end up in a position with knees fully flexed. The best and less constraining way to get up is to drive your butt up (forgot this is ski forum- the aft area up). Simply go up using muscles in your butt and not quads.
Your torso will end up being more forward this way, keep it straight if you have lower back problems.

I promise no more about squatting unless solicited.

Robert

[skirmastr]

Bluey,

Glad you are trying to stay in shape as it is harder when you get older! One of the best things you can do while at work is to climb stairs. It only takes a short time to go up and down a few flights several times a day and if you have a taller building it is even better. In a shorter building always go to the top of the stairs and come back down to the floor you are going to or vice-versa. You can mix things up by moving laterally from step to step going up and down or by rolling your ankles like you would in a turn on each step. The second looks funny but it helps a lot.

My biggest suggestion is to get a pair of in-line skates as it is the easiest cross-over sport to skiing and works a lot of the same muscles. You can get a lot of skating in over lunch and practice turns on small hills or garages. You can also feel carving movements as you guide your bike through a turn and how you keep your center of mass inside just like skiing to counteract the forces of nature you are encountering in the turn.

As far as John saying that pretending your turning while walking around corners etc.. is worthless then he should not do it. For the rest of us that like to keep our muscle memory in good condition then you should do it. I used that exact technique for many years when I could not get on snow to train for ski races and I was able to win plenty of races without ever seeing gates outside of the race. John doesn't seem to understand that you have to have some type of guiding motion to go through a turn even if it is very passive and gosh that has to be steering doesn't it. You can let the skis do all the work that you want but skiing is so much more fun when you are leading them around instead just waiting for things to happen!

A good skier can make one or two turn shapes look good but a great skiers can make all kinds of turn shapes look good. In order to do that you have to have a big bag of movement patterns to fall back on and you need to practice them every chance you get in every sport that you participate in!

Sorry for getting of the subject a little bit bluey but I come on here occasionally and read what people are saying an it makes my head shake.
You have to remember one thing about skiing and this was told to me by John McMutry many years ago when he was still involved with the US Ski Team "Skiing is a very simple sport when you get to the heart of it, all you are doing is running back and forth down the hill adapting those movements that you make when you run to skiing"! When you start to understand that skiing becomes so much simpler.

I am off of my high horse and I will look forward to any further discussions.

[Bluey]

Muscle memory is a good point raised by Skirmastr and t seems to me that the commonly held belief is that unless your getting it on the slopes then anything else is very very secondary and is not promoted......

I'll be a bit cynical here and suggest its not in the commercial interests of some to change this viewpoint......but as Skimastr has pointed out its possible to improve body memory off the slopes eg by simply going up & down stairs, in-line skating and even just walking round corners at the office. But the trick is, like all exercises you need to practice the right movements and you need to do them regularly ie especially in the off-season......so these tips are really helpful for my way of thinking......


more later....


Bluey.....

[Lisa]

There are a number of important factors to be considered if you want to make your fitness program ski-specific. Many people talk about the importance of strength, flexibility and balance, but there are two extremely crucial words that needed to be added to these aspects of fitness:'

Dynamic
Integrated

Static exercises, such as wall sits will promote static skiing. Static balance, such as standing on one leg and chanting for 30 minutes will do little for the transitional balance required when moving from turn to turn. You can contort your body into a pretzel position and practice breathing patterns while contemplating the significance of navel lint, but where do we do anything like that on the slopes?

Do we ever isolate a muscle group in skiing, the way we isolate the quads when using the leg extension machine? What happens on the slopes when someone is extremely strong, but has limiited balance?

Programs that integrate strength, balance and flexibility while encouraging dynamic movement will be the most beneficial. Think about slide boards, bosu, stability balls, balance discs, etc. Most strength and flexibility exercises can be done on these devices. Make sure that you do not let your quads get too much stronger than your hamstrings, lest you set your self up for an ACL injury. The best hamstring exercise that integrates balance with core strength is the stability ball hamstring curl.

http://ski-fitness.net
http://www.mountainsportfitness.com

[Mr. T]

My preparation is really confined to stretching and inline skating.

Stretching I use Harald Skiflex + some yoga exercises that were showed to me by inline famoous Eddy Metzger, one of the few persons in the world if not the only one to do yoga while skating. Eddy is to inline pretty much what Harald is to skiing, although I do not recall Harald doing yoga while skiing.

I found great benefit for my ankles from inline skating. True, I took inline probably much further than most people likely care to, but it is a fact that when I went to see Harald 4 weeks ago, he found out that my knock-kneed posture had decreased by 1 degree. There is really no secret in the way I skate, I just entered competitions, hence I use pro frames (5x90) and move the frame pretty much to the inside of the boots. In this way, normally ankles tend to collapse outside rather than inside like it is the case with 95% of skaters. After 2 miles in that position, one has to stop or skate in a kind of awkward way. But, if you keep training and training the moment your ankles get tired moves further and further ahead in mileage. In addition, the correct skating technique if mastered will have the skater on his/her outside edge of the wheels. I was skating up to 30 miles a day and the results did not disappoint me. I know that the Carvers are more specific and much closer to what happens on skis, but I am firmly convinced that using inline skates in the race position (blade to the inside between the big toe and the second toe)
has a great impact in making anybody's ankles stronger. Of course you need skates that allow moving the frames under the boot and only the high-end fitness skates allow for that in addition to racing products. No need to get into fancy double push technique: a solid classic stride and mileage will do the trick.

One exercise that also helps me a lot and I am seeing it these days when I ski is also from inline. When I am cruising on inlines I put , say, my left skate fully ahead of the right (I even put space in between the skates) and in this position I take a turn to the left. During the traverse I scissor my skates to assume the opposite position (i.e. right skate ahead of left) and take a right turn and so on. Once this technique is learned on flat it transfers beautifully to control speed on downhill sections. This has helped my stance a lot. In fact this drill does not come out smooth if one cannot keep the legs very closed to each other in horizontal distance. Plus to turn you have to tip the inside skate a lot if you are in a narrow path downhill. Very pleasant sensation of carving as well.

Weights. I may be wrong, but I always have the impression that if you work on a leg press or even do squats, one leg works more than the other. Simply, most of us have a stronger side and a weaker side. So, I started to separate the legs and do leg presses with one leg at the time. Instead of pressing 5-600 lbs I work with 250-300 lbs at the time. And sure enough I realized that my right leg was much stronger. Hence now I am working longer with my left to reduce the difference in strength between the two legs.

Also doing slalom on a skate moving like a snake (I am talking flat terrain not downhill here) reveals differences in strenght between two legs or difference in the range of movements at the ankle. I look for all signs of lack of symmetry in my body and try to improve.

Aerobically I do not worry since I get a lot of it from skating. If I can skate 26 miles in 1h25min, I assume I have enough aerobic resistance to ski even with the consideration the fact that there is less air at elevation.

[Joseph]

Sorry that I ignored you Jay, I just haven't had the time to read every thread. This is the first time that I've read this one. First and foremost, there's snow on the ground. The best exercise for skiing is skiing. That's a no brainer folks, so if you're not out there already, what's wrong with you? (No offense to those in warmer areas or the flatlanders) This summer I had the great opportunity to train with Tom Barbos of the Waterville Academy. He specializes in rehab of injuries and intergration of strength with balance and flexability. He often has more success bringing athletes back from injuries than the best doctors and physical therapists. He uses a russian method of training that was developed for the cosmonauts. There are no weights. The thinking is that if you can't control the strenght you have, why have that much strength. Being able to balance with the power you have built is far more important than any strength that you may be able to generate in one range of motion in the gym.

Workouts for the legs include field exercises, all of which were done in short bursts at slow, medium and fast speeds. They involved jumping, spinning, hopping and all other various kinds of movements that quite frankly made me feel stupid while I was doing them. However, the following day every single muscle from my abs to me feet was sore--including the muscles in my feet.

Tom's other philosophy that comes from his training methods and relates directly to skiing is that in all training and skiing, the pelvis must stay vertical. This is crucial in skiing. One can do as many hindu squats as they want to build their strength, but as soon as the pelvis breaks from vertical to the femur and spine, you have given up that strength that you have worked so hard to build. This is okay in the turn transition if you are light, flexed and changing edges, but as soon as pressure begins to build on the new stance ski, the pelvis should go back to vertical with the femur of the stance ski and the spine. We did some field and pool exercises to help promote "pelvic stability". I am by no means the poster child for this in either my skiing or dryland training. But it is coming slowly. A good exercise to test whether you pelvis is vertical:

1. Kneel on one knee with the other leg bent and out in front of you.
2. Grab the foot of the leg on which you are kneeling with your oppisite hand. (If you are kneeling on your right knee, grab your right foot with your left hand, behind your back.)
3. Try to stand up on one foot.

If you can't stand, your pelvis is not vertical. Try doing your squats like this rather than using a wall or any weight training devices. It will ensure balance along with pelvic stability as well as build strength.

I am also starting to play around with the balance boards at the alignment center and in the Harb household. I am convinced that regular stints on a good balance board will strenghten the inverters and everters of the ankle, as well as fine tune plantar and dorsiflexion. It can also help to improve the ankle's range of motion in all directions. I Think that there are some directions on how to build your own on the HSS web site.

Of course, no skier's dryland program would be complete without Harb Carvers. There is no better or more accurate dryland ski simulator on earth. If you ever get the pleasure of meeting Tom while you are up in New Hampshire, ask him about them. I've heard that he thinks about pavement now when he skiis.

Joseph

[mkgil]

Just don't go too deep. the stress on the back of the meniscus increases exponentially with depth. 1/4 or 1/3 down is enough. NEVER BELOW PARALLEL!

Just ask my surgeon.

This is a complicated issue. The emphasis about never going below parallel came from a misunderstaning of sports physiology research in the '50s. It made its way to medical schools by the mid to late '60s. Indeed the stress on the muniscus increases as BigE points out--just as the stress on the elbow extensors increases at the end of the eccentric range of motion for the triceps. That stress is what allows for maximum hypertrophy/strength as supercompensation after the planned stress of a load is added. Same for the connective tissue of the knee.

We rehab knees and backs after surgery when the expected healing doesn't occur. After returning patients to presurgical functioning, if they're interested, we move them toward "injury proofing" joints. (Nice concept; it's an ideal more than an achieveable goal.) If enough functioning is intact,we go for complete range of motion around the joints. Last, we move for complete ROM under load.

Most pople don't go that far. And if your knee is compromised to start with, follow BigE's advice. If you can do full squats with rock solid form, do them.

No time to proof, sorry.

Michael

[mkgil]

A lttle more time to add some thoughts. As I already wrote, if your knees are already compromised, follow the advice BigE gave about not squatting below parallel. If after successful rehabilatation you want to squat, get competent coaching on technique. You'll need to strengthen at complete range of motion with a broomstick, then an emply bar for quite a while before you even consider full squats with load.

So why use load in the first place? Joseph made an excellent case for bodyweight only exercises. Depends on how you ski. If you're aggressive and/ or ski off piste you're going to fall in some strange places and postitions. Some of the falls will put much more than bodyweight stress on various joints. For that matter think of the g forces in ski racing. A joint that is very strong through a complete range of motion is your best defense against a sled ride down to the lodge. (Sometimes no defense is good enough.) I think it's significant that at a bodyweight of 180, Daron Rahlves reportedly squats 400 pounds.

Michael

[BigE]

Impressive if Darren actually goes below parallel.

[BigE]

That stress is what allows for maximum hypertrophy/strength as supercompensation after the planned stress of a load is added. Same for the connective tissue of the knee.

Most pople don't go that far. And if your knee is compromised to start with, follow BigE's advice. If you can do full squats with rock solid form, do them.

Michael

YIIKES! Hypertrophy/strength training does not require full range of motion; that is a myth. The stress at full range of motion is not what makes your muscles big or strong. It's all about time under tension and load. Why is an eccentric phase to a lift useful? It increases time under tension. Look at the bicep curl as an example. Why increase load? Current theory is microtears of muscle tissue stop occurring, and increased load is required to start the tear/heal process.

I don't think that the same reasoning at all applies to meniscus. Otherwise, my meniscus would be HYOOGE!

[BigE]

In powerlifting squat (which I like the best) going beyond parallel is actually not possible, you tummy will hit your thighs some 5 degrees before reaching parallel. The other good thing about this type of squat is that the knee does not bend or go forward much, an imaginary vertical line from the knee down will never go beyond the big toe.

...snip...

It is best to seek a professional to have a look at your form.

Slayer,

I could go "ass to the grass" without my knees going past my toes. My tummy never hit my thighs.

I totally agree a pro should have a look.

Also, re: comments that knee injuries were thought to be brought on by squatting, and then disproven:

Meniscus damage was not disproven. IIRC, what was disproven was ligament issues, due to the knee forming a closed kinetic chain. This implies that as the knee is very stable sub-parallel, there are no imbalanced forces on the ligaments or instabilities that would otherwise make squating dangerous.

In fact, the most dangerous position in which to change direction is when the knees are at right angles. That's the position that orthopedic surgeons test the knee for instability. Why? It's most unstable there.

So, I'd not recommend even going that far..... There are much safer ways to strengthen the quads and spinal erectors and glutes.