Dorsiflexion (moved from drills and range of motion topic)

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Dorsiflexion (moved from drills and range of motion topic)

Postby meput » Wed May 18, 2011 5:55 pm

geoffda wrote:It's not just flexion though. *Everything* is about tipping. Flexion (along with extension) is a primary movement because you can't tip without it. Fore-aft also plays a large role in tipping; until you can properly position yourself over your skis, tipping is impossible, which is why the movements of dorsi-flexion/plantar flexion along with moving your skis forward and backward underneath you are also primary movements. Believe me, if you are missing *any* of the primary movements you will be completely unable to tip and tipping is the most primary movement of all.

It should be noted that the primary movements go hand in hand. Flexion moves your hips behind your feet, pulling your feet back restores your balance. Pulling your feet back more allows you to get forward leverage on the ski tip and create tight arcs. Minimally, you need to have enough fore-aft skill to get back in balance in order to develop tipping. If you want to become an expert skier, eventually you'll need to learn how to get forward.

And then there are the secondary movements: counter-balancing, counter-acting, and coordinated pole use. You can tip without these movements, but until you master them, you will never be able to develop your tipping to the level required for expert skiing.

Excluding tipping, the most important essential is always the one which is most holding back your ability to tip.


Geoffda,
I agree with everything that you wrote. A few thoughts regarding dorsiflexion/plantar flexion as it relates to fore/aft movements. I have previously been chastised regarding "the dreaded dorsiflexion":

HH said, "I've heard this approach before, it pops up every few years and I have never found that using doriflexion in the boot, to be an effective way to think about centering. I have heard it used in the PSIA jargon. I cringe every time I hear it and I never see results when it's used. Every top skier I've talked to tells me they never use that idea, including Diana and various other PMTS instructors and racers."

With that said, I still use the concept of dorsiflexion/plantar flexion as an external cue on where I am with fore/aft position. My hamstrings are doing the work. I seek to have my feet feel the top of the boot (dorsiflexion) while I feel my weight is on the anterior ball of my feet. The only way I can do this is with a strong foot pullback. With the feeling on plantar flexion, I know I am in the backseat. I assume this how you are using dorsiflexion/plantar flexion in your post.

I apologize to all concerned about bringing up the "dreaded dorsiflexion".
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby Max_501 » Wed May 18, 2011 9:02 pm

meput wrote:With that said, I still use the concept of dorsiflexion/plantar flexion as an external cue on where I am with fore/aft position. My hamstrings are doing the work. I seek to have my feet feel the top of the boot (dorsiflexion) while I feel my weight is on the anterior ball of my feet. The only way I can do this is with a strong foot pullback. With the feeling on plantar flexion, I know I am in the backseat. I assume this how you are using dorsiflexion/plantar flexion in your post.


Unfortunately dorsiflexion can be done without any foot pullback. To make matters more interesting we can do a foot pullback without having the toes touch the top of the boot!
Last edited by Max_501 on Thu May 19, 2011 6:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby BigE » Thu May 19, 2011 6:30 am

In my opinion, the idea of dorsiflexion has a very limited use.

It is used for those that are in the back seat due to pushing on the balls of their feet. It's a way for the most stubborn back seat drivers to get forward. It's not a movement that is useful once the benefits of being forward have been realized.
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby geoffda » Thu May 19, 2011 10:36 am

BigE wrote:In my opinion, the idea of dorsiflexion has a very limited use.

It is used for those that are in the back seat due to pushing on the balls of their feet. It's a way for the most stubborn back seat drivers to get forward. It's not a movement that is useful once the benefits of being forward have been realized.


IMO, dorsiflexion/plantar flexion is useful for making *minor* fore-aft adjustments; i.e. moving balance along the arch from a basically neutral stance. You need to be able to make these kinds of subtle adjustments to stay balanced in all conditions and to get the most possible control over your skis. There is nothing "wrong" with dorsiflexion/plantar flexion. They are considered primary movements and eventually anyone wishing to become an expert skier will need to acquire them. That said, I think you could make the argument that maybe these movements are too fine-grained to be absolutely necessary for beginning skiers in order to develop tipping. It would be interesting to hear Harald's thoughts on why dorsiflexion/plantar flexion were identified as primary, rather than secondary movements. BTW, the "primary" movements of PMTS are documented in the PMTS Instructor's manual for those who are interested.

In any event, where people go wrong is in thinking that dorsiflexion can be used for major fore-aft adjustments. For example, dorsiflexion isn't going to help you if you get in the back seat. For that, you need to pull both feet back hard. As HH has pointed out many times, your ankle isn't strong enough to lever your body in and out of extreme positions. Moreover, even if it were possible, it is doubtful that the movement could be executed fast enough to be useful. I know when I get knocked into the back seat, I want out immediately and pulling the feet back aggressively is the fastest and surest way to get back forward.

Despite what many people think, dorsiflexion also isn't going to help you get REALLY forward. Yes, you can probably dorsiflex and feel your shins on the tongue of the boot, but that isn't forward. Forward , as in, "I want to be able to load the tip of my ski such that I can generate a radius tight enough that I don't die when I try to lay down arcs on this steep pitch" can only be accomplished by pulling your feet back far enough that your body starts acting like a giant lever as you hang off the front of your boots. It's a act of faith that your boots are actually stiff enough to hold you where you need to be and your nose isn't going to end up in the snow. Most skiers have never experienced that feeling, and they never will unless they learn to actively pull their feet back. Of course, most skiers are skiing in boots that are too soft for them so they couldn't get forward even if they knew how; their boots simply wouldn't support them.

OTOH, plantar flexion probably is all you need to complement your foot pullback. Although people talk about (myself included) pushing, or sliding, your feet forward, that isn't really what is happening. Simply "weighting the heels" which can be accomplished by plantar flexion is all that is needed to let the skis slice forward. Actually trying to push the skis forward would result in an immediate trip to the far reaches of the back seat.

So tying this back to the orginal post (sorry Max :oops: ), range of motion is the key to developing these skills. Both dorsiflexion/plantar flexion and foot pullback movements are necessary for high end skiing. Practice them with full range of motion. For dorsiflexion/plantar flexion, experiment with both the full range and timing as you are skiing. Feel how these relatively small movements affect your balance and the performance of the ski. Then ramp it up and start experimenting with foot pullback. Play with the way forward drills. Figure out how to create a turn that combines the sensations introduced by the way forward drill with the maximum amount of tipping you are able to do today. Compare that turn to your "normal" turn where you don't get forward.
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby BigE » Thu May 19, 2011 1:22 pm

Is there a reference to dorsiflexion as a primary movement in *any* of the other books? I have used such movements, but when I've used them, they were a product of athleticism, and not an element of a model turn.

I'm not trying to start a war, I honestly don't recall reading anything about it in the context of PMTS.
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby Max_501 » Thu May 19, 2011 2:12 pm

I suspect we'll find that HH has supplemented dorsiflexion/plantar flexion with the hamstring based foot pullback.
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby geoffda » Thu May 19, 2011 2:17 pm

BigE wrote:Is there a reference to dorsiflexion as a primary movement in *any* of the other books? I have used such movements, but when I've used them, they were a product of athleticism, and not an element of a model turn.

I'm not trying to start a war, I honestly don't recall reading anything about it in the context of PMTS.


P. 34 of PMTS instructors manual where the primary movements are defined. However, that is about the only place it is mentioned. IMO, you have to have both dorsiflexion/plantar flexion *and* foot pullback movements to be a complete skier.
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby Max_501 » Thu May 19, 2011 3:21 pm

Maybe this post from 2004 will help:

Harald wrote:Ankle flex

Understanding of ankle use in skiing has increased substantially in the last ten years. I remember when no one talked about the ankle and how it was important to skiing. Everything revolved around upper body and gross movements. My father always told me, you ski with your ankles and your eyes.

Range of dorsiflexion is possibly the most limiting factor for skier development. I don't think one can become an expert skier unless there is at least ten degrees of dorsiflexion in the ankle. Ankle eversion is just as important, but we have figured out ways to increase functionality of eversion through footbed and boot board modification.

Dorsiflexion range is instrumental in for/aft balance, for/aft movement and lower body angle acquisition. If you don't have the ankle pulling (back) capability your (for/aft) vertical leg shaft angles will be out of line. The inside shin at the 'High C' part of the turn is critical to success in high level expert skiing. I measure a skier by the angle of the inside shin to the snow. Nothing shows off your skiing ability better than the lateral lower shin angle to the snow. If you can't pull the inside boot back to match the outside boot at this early point in the turn, you are destined to develop only limited angles. More and more instructors and coaches are talking about lifting the front of the foot to close the ankle (closing the ankle). Pulling the foot back accomplishes this better, as the movement is specific to the right part of the turn, the 'High C' part.

If you are in a boot that has too much forward lean for your ankle to flex, you will have fit problems. Too much forward lean also keeps the ankle too closed therefore limiting your stance at the end of turns (many people have this problem with production Tecnica and Lange boots). The ankle should be able to open as the turn progresses. If you buckle your boots tightly at the top, you may make your boots too restrictive in ankle movement.

I hope this answers some of the controversy about ankle flexion.
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby geoffda » Thu May 19, 2011 4:15 pm

Nice pull!
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby meput » Thu May 19, 2011 5:09 pm

Max_501 wrote:Unfortunately dorsiflexion can be done without any foot pullback. To make matters more interesting we can do a foot pullback without having the toes touch the top of the boot!


Agree 100%
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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby Kiwi » Thu May 19, 2011 10:34 pm

Isn't it as simple as cause and effect. Dorsiflexion/plantar flexion are effects. Proper hamstring contraction causes foot pull back which in turn causes this flexion. However, it is important to focus on what achieves the pull back, the hamstring, not the flexion itself. Agreed there is a change in the amount of flexion with a hamstring pull back but there is no need to dwell on this — unless you have an insufficient range of flexion.

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Re: Drills and range of motion

Postby dan.boisvert » Fri May 20, 2011 8:59 am

geoffda wrote:P. 34 of PMTS instructors manual where the primary movements are defined. However, that is about the only place it is mentioned. IMO, you have to have both dorsiflexion/plantar flexion *and* foot pullback movements to be a complete skier.


In case anybody else is having trouble finding this list in their copy, it's on the top left of page RM-31 in mine. I'm not sure if the text was reflowed in a reprint or something, but I got mine last year, so other new people might find it there, too.
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Re: Dorsiflexion (moved from drills and range of motion topi

Postby BigE » Tue May 24, 2011 7:12 am

max,

The feet are pulled back by the hamstrings -- the ankles are closed as a consequence, not as a primary movement. Harald's post does not claim dorsiflexion is a "primary movement", but a bio-mechanical requirement.

In fact, he says that instructors using this dorsiflexion movement for re-centering are incorrect, pull back is much more sensible -- ie. getting the feet back under you.

Secondly, he says that boots with extreme forward lean ( I might add, and a low zeppa), will prematurely close the ankle, limiting the ROM of dorsiflexion. This is not a good thing if you want to stay in balance -- as the feet move fore and aft, the ankle opens and closes. It is not sensible to force the ankle closed at all times.
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Re: Dorsiflexion (moved from drills and range of motion topi

Postby Max_501 » Tue May 24, 2011 8:22 am

As others have pointed out, dorsiflexion is a primary movement and the post I quoted from HH above helps explains why. The foot pullback and dorsiflexion work together. There have been many posts by others over the years about dorsiflexion as a primary movement and it is mentioned in the instructor's manual. While dorsiflexion is a primary movement, it is not the strongest method to maintain fore/aft balance in expert skiing and this is what HH has said.

From the Instructor's Manual, RM-31

The primary movements are:

1) Lateral and medial tipping of the foot - inversion & eversion
2) Flexing and extending of the leg
3) Plantar and dorsiflexion of the foot
4) Moving the feet fore and aft
Note: 3 and 4 often happen together


The hamstring based foot pullback is part of 4.
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Re: Dorsiflexion (moved from drills and range of motion topi

Postby Kiwi » Tue May 24, 2011 8:20 pm

No one can disagree with HH's comments that a restricted range of ankle movement, possibly from a boot, and the need to have a sufficient range of movement in both the plantar and dorsiflexion senses is required to ski properly. As Geoffda said without flexion you can't tip!

I also appreciate that deliberately lifting your toes up can increase your range of flexion.

Similarly, if using a cue like: your toes touching the top of your boot— works for you, great.

Nevertheless, I do not think that plantar and dorsiflexion are primary movements in the sense that this type of flexion is a taught movement, as opposed to a result of a taught movement.

I do not think the instructors manual is suggesting that it is good to teach dorsiflexion— "qua dorsiflexion". Rather the manual suggests that good flexion is the result of teaching the right movements. Further, the list of primary movements in the instructors manual at RM 31 is, in my opinion, a list of primary movements an instructor must understand bio-mechanically to properly analyse a skier. The list of primary movements in the instructors manual is not, in my opinion, a list of the primary movements taught. This list of primary movements can be both the resultative of, or causative of, a movement; except this type of flexion which is totally resultative and therefore, as of itself, can't be taught in skiing.

The instructors' manual reminds us that PMTS is about teaching movements that result in parallel turns etc., Int 13. ie PMTS does not teach maneuvers, it creates them. It is only in this sense that plantar and dorsiflexion do not fit well.

The definition of Primary Movements on the web by John Mason can confuse when talking about primary movements with its reference to the phantom move. HH explains at, Int 15, that the phantom move is more than one movement. Otherwise the definition seems fine.

Def.
"Primary Movements: These are the movements, that while small, create the biggest changes up the kinetic chain. ... An example of a primary movement is the phantom move."

However, if as I suspect, this list of primary movements is a list of movements the body must be able make, otherwise you will not ski efficiently, in the sense that if you lack sufficiency in the range or ability to perform these movements, your skiing will be limited. Then the list is of primary importance.

Enough, sounds like Epic.

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