Skiing is believing

PMTS Forum

Skiing is believing

Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:07 pm

It's obvious Rusty , Ott and their ilk refuse to believe that PMTS really works . We are all wasting ink here until they actually get to a camp or ski with HH . They might be great guys , Ott sounds like quite a character and they seem to enjoy this sport but we know what works for us and what hasn't worked .

Why don't they put their money where their mouths are . Otherwise stop wasting our reading time , there is precious little of it .
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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:21 pm

Hey, leave me out of this! I believe PMTS works wherever it is possible to be taught, I just don't believe it is the only way, maybe because of my Austrian/French/German/American teaching heritage. Why? Because they produced Harald and Diana and Joe and Harry and there will always be newer and newer systems as ski technology progresses since what is possible to do on skis is driven by ski design. And Austrian/French/German/American and PMTS and all others will have to evolve along with it.

By the way, John Mason is going to teach me all that he knows about PMTS in January when I and a group spend a couple of days skiing with him. Even if he isn't able to ski it, I'm sure he can explain and the rest of us skiing with him will do it.

PMTS has the advantage of simplicity of movements (primary movments) so the learning should be easier and belive me, anything that makes my skiing easier is more than welcome.

As for camps, I don't attend any camps, mostly because I live on Social Security with hardly any savings, free skiing after seventy makes it possible to stay in the game. But changing from one way of skiing to another isn't hard for me at all, I have done it many times in my sixty years of skiing.

I think the arguments are not about skiing abilities, there are thousands upon thousands of great skiers who have come through varied systems or quite often through no system. It is about teaching skiing and it's progression. And that is because skiing isn't very hard, skiers become proficient in very few hours of practicing. You certainly can't become proficient learning to play the violin in sixty or hundred hours a year.

....Ott
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Postby Nancy » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:48 pm

jclayton: I think you are misinterpreting what others think. PMTS is not the only thing that works. What is so difficult to understand about that? Rusty is not trying to convince you or John Mason that his way is the only way. An open mind is a wonderful thing. Why don't you try it?
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Hey - I'm just skiing for fun at Seven Springs

Postby John Mason » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:58 pm

Ott - I was just coming to ski for fun!

Actually, Harald was doing Primary Movements with his racers up in Alaska before PMTS was officially born. I don't know that shaped skis changed what Harald taught at all. Maybe the shaped ski technology made this approach possible for the beginner progression.

So, Ott, what will the next technical change be? Skis with a bunch of radial rails on their undersides?

Ask Lisamarie or Katy (Tsavo) or Mikewil - I just skied for fun with them and never said a word either given or asked.

I'm with the group recommendation. Try out the instructor camp next year. It was a blast. And, you wouldn't be the oldest one there either!
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That's a whole different subject

Postby John Mason » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:27 pm

Nancy wrote:jclayton: I think you are misinterpreting what others think. PMTS is not the only thing that works. What is so difficult to understand about that? Rusty is not trying to convince you or John Mason that his way is the only way. An open mind is a wonderful thing. Why don't you try it?


A couple of observations:

Not all ski instruction leads to the same type of skiing. Each "expert" at the top of the chain skis with a certain style. Like the videos BigE was posting of some top expert skiers, their skiing looks and is quite different functionally than what Harald does. Much of this is indeed based on the philosophies of skiing represented by the instructional systems.

Nancy, you seem to be implying that all skiing is the same and whatever road you take to it is the same result. This has not been my observation. People that are learning skiing see the differences. Being at the instructor camp talking with former national demo team members and other top skiers that have come to PMTS after being PSIA for years also reinforces the perspective that what Harald is doing with PMTS is actually pertty unique.

Working with one of the instructors that also happens to be a PSIA examiner, he explained that the biggest difference is where the pressure is in the turn. In a typical carved ski turn, most people feel maximum pressure at the bottom of the turn. In a PMTS style turn maxium pressure if felt as the body is latterally tipped in and the skis are going down the fall line. His phrase was that the whole pressure gradiant is moved up the turn. Very few skiers turn this way. This is the High C carving that you can see many people here speak of that is absent from the vast majority of skier's skill sets.

I have not seen any emperical evidence that supports the dismisal of PMTS by others that it's just Harald's marketing gig and that its really the same stuff. There are others that instruct with a similar perspective. The best example of that is the Epic poster Eski. His philosophy of skiing is also not compatible with most of the PSIA progression (yeah - yeah - the progression that doesn't exist, but actually does - check out witherells book for his analysis of that contradiction). But Eric's philosphy of how to make turns is quite compatible with what PMTS teaches.

Some people actually don't like Harald's style of skiing. But like one of the campers told me at this camp, he got involved in PMTS because he had bought Lito's videos of which Harald skis in some of them. At that time he didn't know squat about PMTS. But he did some asking about that skier in Lito's video and discovered PMTS that way. This camper told me, I don't want to end up skiing like Lito, I want to ski like that other guy.

But, to each their own. I personally prefer the results I see in the top PMTS skiers and instructors. I don't like the skiing I see in many of the other PSIA skiers I see. (or what I see recently in Ski magazine for that matter). The idea that there is no difference in top end skiing doesn't fly. Everyone has their styles. I as a student get to pick the style I like. Everyone can do the same.

It is a closed mind that thinks all these people at the top ski the same way.
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wrong, John

Postby Nancy » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:42 pm

John: I completely understand that not all ski instruction leads to the same kind of skiing. I am absolutely not implying that all instruction leads to the same result. You and JClayton seem to take the view that PMTS leads to the "Right way to ski" and everything else leads to the "wrong way to ski".

I have read Witherall's book and I learned quite a bit from it.

I understand that you like PMTS and that you want to ski like that.
No one is stopping you. Just as you would like to see PSIA types give credit to some of the PMTS theories and not dismiss it, I think you and JClatyon should do the same. While you may not want to ski like
the PSIA types you see, there may be bits and pieces you can take from them to improve your own skiing. You and JClayton do exactly what you accuse Rusty et. al. of doing to PMTS.

Please don't insult me by believing you know what I mean, how I ski or what books I have read. I know enough to realize that there are many things I don't know but I am willing to explore a variety of options to increase my knowledge.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:03 pm

>>>>It is a closed mind that thinks all these people at the top ski the same way.<<<

Should they ski the same way, John? I haven't heard anyone say that Harald should change his skiing to ski the same way as the demo teamers in PSIA do, so why should anyone think that top skiers ski the same way? Demo teamers have to have the same look because that's the nature of the beast, but top skiers have their own quirks, whatever works best for them, and they all rip.

Maybe skis wont have ridges on the bottom, they did away with the groove down the center about twenty years ago, but experimenting with an extra edge set in the sidewall so it engages after the ski is tipped, say at 25-30 degrees, would allow carving without high edge angles, especially when the automatic flex control sets in. Or some such. It is not impossible to design a ski which will progressivly soften as it is flexed, now it just stiffens.

But who knows what's on the dawing board. We are just skiing for fun, you are right, but I would be amiss if I'd squander the opportunity to learn what at Epic is called 'John's release".

As it looks with snow around here, Seven Springs may be my first day on skis.

....Ott
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no problem

Postby John Mason » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:21 pm

No insult intended Nancy. I'm a nice friendly person. I thought you were implying that all top skiers ski the same and thus the path doesn't matter. Thanks for clarifying.

Ott, exactly. People don't have to ski the same.

Looks like we are all agreeing.

Nancy - yes, I would guess that Jclayton and myself perfer the PMTS direction. This is different from saying this is the one and only "right way" to ski.

But I don't care if people want to ski another way. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my son skis terrain that scares me and he just unweights and pivots at the top of his turns and that works fine for him. He has a smile on his face.

Also, Nancy, about 1/3 of my days of instruction are not from PMTS. I pick up whatever is good from whatever source. I love picking up drills/cues from instructors from all backgrounds. Different cues trigger movements better for some people than for others.

Ott, so they actually tried a rail down the center! So, how about a ski with a computer and it flexes as you tip it to scribe an arc based on a motorized angulation g force sensor? No resisntace to flexing at all. Or a binding that rotates and tips the skis and a little steering pod you work. You can just go down the hill standing up and steer your way down.

Somehow this does not sound as fun.
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"John's release?"

Postby John Mason » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:33 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:But who knows what's on the dawing board. We are just skiing for fun, you are right, but I would be amiss if I'd squander the opportunity to learn what at Epic is called 'John's release".


John's release?

It looked to me that snowdog, fastman, nolo, eski, arcmeister all are describing the same release.

It just seemed that some on epic were thinking it was a step up and a negative move so I used Lito's term for the turn - EWS - to try to see if there was common ground or if some individuals really didn't understand that turn. I believe that became the 2nd longest post since the new board came up.

Forums are the worst place to describe movement patterns. Much easier to just have fun and share ideas on the slopes.

Happy Turkey Day to you all! (if you're a turkey - them my deepest sympathies)
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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:49 pm

>>>>Much easier to just have fun and share ideas on the slopes. <<<<

Amen! .....Ott
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:13 pm

My point in this thread is that the criticisms of PMTS are continually going over the same ground ad nauseam .

Ott , I enjoy many of your posts but you must admit you have made some cutting remarks about PMTS . ( Ive been known to make a few myself about other systems but there we go , free speech etc..) By the way the violin analogy is not so good , 60 hrs is a week of skiing , 100 two , not many could become proficient in that short space of time . Compare a concert violinist and a FIS skier , the hours would probably be the same .

Nancy , I'm only saying this system works for me , I kept an open mind for years , thinking my lack of progress was my fault but always with the sneaking feeling I wasn't getting all the info . Now my skiing flows like it never has and probably never would have with TTS .
All those guys like Rusty and Ott I thought had a god given gift that was denied to me .
You talk about taking bits and pieces from other systems , this is exactly why other systems have largely failed ( note I didn't say completely ) . They are not a system , just a collection of bits and pieces . The success stories are successes despite the "system " not because of it , ( again , in my experience )

One side effect of learning this system is that now I can break down a turn and see how it has been put together and why . The component parts are much clearer , I can watch a ski video or race and enjoy it much more now . The video posted by Tommy of Michael Von Gruenigen I have probably played 30 or so times , concentrating on different turns and will watch it many more times yet .

The bottom line ; I GET MUCH MORE PLEASURE OUT OF SKIING NOW .

I do have an open mind , SOME OF MY BEST FREINDS ARE "HIP SWIVELLERS "

Some of them can ski me right off the mountain , huck their meat off cliffs and ski breakable crust like it was champagne powder , BUT , I don't want to ski like them .

Yeah John, I try not to look at the Ski mag pics in case I catch something !
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Postby Rusty Guy » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:45 pm

jclayton wrote:My point in this thread is that the criticisms of PMTS are continually going over the same ground ad nauseam .

Ott , I enjoy many of your posts but you must admit you have made some cutting remarks about PMTS .


I guess my initial reaction is that HH and others have made a living out of caustic remarks.

I am lucky to have skied with Ott and am a richer man having him as a friend. We should all spend a day with the man because it is a rare treat.
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Postby Harald » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:52 pm

I make a living by providing accurate skiing feedback and instruction. I also make a living by providing the best customer service for boot fitting, alignment, footbeds and instruction. The caustic remarks are for those who don?t want to or can?t provide skiers with what they pay for and deserve, yet act like they know what?s better for the customers than what the customer requests.
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Postby Rusty Guy » Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:38 am

Herein lies my point Harald. You believe that lack of value to customers involves all 6000 members of PSIA-RM merely due to affiliation.

It is a specious argument.

What makes it more egregious is when someone with a couple of months on skis starts spewing. Do you think folks are stupid? Everyone knows the source.

I can only speak for one member, however, had you and others approached matters in a different manner I might well have explored PMTS.

You may well have armed yourself with a dual edged sword.
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:50 am

This has been going on for years. It's never, been cleared up.

I have said that HH should have aligned more with PSIA. Because, I felt his system would have been more widely accepted. At times, I have been critical of his approach.

But that's just my opinion. When I've asked HH about this, his answer is always the same -- "I tried taking it to them (PSIA), they wouldn't listen".

So, at that point if you were in HH's shoes, what would you do? I know what I'd do. I'd start selling my darn product! In order to sell anything (sex, drugs, software, what--ever) you need to have a competitive offering. If the competition isn't there, you need to create it. For example you can't come out with a widget and claim "It's better!". You have to say what it's better than, or no one listens.

HH's "competition" was tradtional ski instruction. He simply pointed out the weaknesses in the competitive offering vis-a-vis his product. Knowing what I do now, I would have done the exact same thing.

In doing so, in stating what he felt was the weaknesses of the competitive product, he "offended" some. HH was the first one to be highly critical of a product that's been out there since the beginning of the sport.

But the thing is, he didn't "offend" anyone. All he did, was point out where he felt the weaknesses were/are. The PSIA types, Rusty including, took his crticisim as being offensive, which in my twisted opinion, is no different than whining or crying to mommy. As well, how dare anyone compete against PSIA. :wink:

Read the books, watch the videos. If you think he's offending anyone, you're wrong. All HH has ever done, is point out weaknesses. I know, I've been in this for 6 years now (thank you, HH).

I been with him for 6 years now. HH welcomes all business, I promise you. He wants students and ski instructors. So why would he cut down ski instructors, paying customers? He doesn't, he wouldn't. He just points out where he feels they (ski instructors) need work. That's not offensive. I know I wish I had someone watching over me, telling me where I could improve.

Seems to me this ski instructor crowd his thin skin. Because if you can't take constructive criticism, you shouldn't be in the game.

Finally, this one I've never backed down from. The ski world -- ski instructors and students -- owe more to HH than anyone. He should be in the Ski Hall of Fame. Because he's done more in 6 years for the business than the business has done for itself, in 60 years.

I hope you all can accept this as the truth. Rusty. How about you drop the, "He's picking on me" attitude?

I think we're all just antzy, waiting for more snow. :wink: And on that note, I'm off to make a few turns at the Beav.

Happy thanksgiving to you and yours.
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