Rusty - your PM box is full

[John Mason]

Your PM to me sounds close to a saying a PMTS oriented skier could not become an examiner in the RM division.

That would not surprise me at all. Sad, but not surprising.

Clearly your impression of some ones PMTS skiing has brought you to incorrect conclusions about PMTS.

I would recommend the PMTS instructor camp for you next year. Attend that, which has clinics of your choice so you make it your own camp, and then form an opinion. The V1 movement analysis software clinic was awesome. Nolo was posting a question as to whether it is a useful tool for teaching, and the PMTS group already has been using it.

This ski instructor camp had instructors and PSIA certs of all levels from all over the country. (Including from the RM division including National demo team members)

These people are very very familiar with both styles of instruction and see lots of positives with primary movements as a teaching tool. You are not familiar with both systems. You think you are, as is obvious, but your statements consistantly show a lack of actual experience with these movement patterns or how they are used in teaching or a progression.

At the instructor camp you can have conversations with Nat demo team members and lots of other PSIA III certs and discuss with very experienced people what the overlaps and differences are and how that translates into your own and your student's skiing. You'd have a great time!

(and Diana with the V1 software will kindly but truthfully reveal whether rotary inputs are a positive or a negative for true carved turns)

[Rusty Guy]

John,

My mailbox has been cleaned out.

I am not suggesting PMTS training would preclude anyone from doing anything.

I have owned V! software for a couple of years. It is good stuff. What I really lust for is dartfish. It is pricey.

I will give serious consideration to taking a PMTS clinic when the insults concerning "TTS" and PSIA cease.

It is my sincere wish to you and to all that they have a happy Thanksgiving. Regardless of the "arguments" we all enjoy a wonderful sport!

[Harald]

John, one ex-demo team member attending the PMTS fall camp, said before the whole group that he was astounded at how one could make such a round short turn by decreasing or eliminating rotary movements. I think this is just an example of how limited the PSIA training system really is. He couldn't believe that skiing at a high level could be achieved without rotary emphasis. He believes it now. I think Rusty is in exactly the same situation, limited approaches. If he were to see Jay's skiing and how it has sky rocketed after just two seasons without steering or rotary emphasis and tried to apply the same approaches as Jay, he would benefit in the same way.

[Rusty Guy]

Harald I'll provide you with a brief biblical quote on this holiday!

Vanity of vanities....there is nothing new under the sun!

I'll bet among the ed staff of PSIA someone else might have figured out a few of the things you have. It ain't rocket science and Dumont isn't the "Skunk Works"!

Having enjoyed Jay's writing I'd love to ski with the guy. Perhaps a few issues couls be obviated.

[John Mason]

Did they ski back then?

no

Harald I'll provide you with a brief biblical quote on this holiday!

Vanity of vanities....there is nothing new under the sun!

Then they must not have been talking about skiing.

But, envy did exist back then. Maybe that's what the Bible was talking about that never changes.

"carry their skis?" Wow - that was over the top. Totally inaccurate too.

As snowdog said to me as this question of where to get ski instruction from came up - world cup skiers understand skiing best - get it from them. He did not think PMTS and Harald was in contradiction to this. I wonder why?

Contrast this to the other advice I was given (I'll not use the name because it's embarrasing). "WC skiers don't know how to teach skiing. They shouldn't get into the instruction business." (from memory - but gist is accurate)

If Harald only carries the skis of WC people and doesn't ski with them, wasn't a WC skier himself, hadn't had a race program that turned out WC skiers then I could see your point Rusty. But, the fact is that community is still connected with Harald and Harald connected with them. Jay has stayed at HH's house and these people call him on the phone and chat and he skis with many of them too.

Harald is not a non-racer that watches this stuff then interpets what they are doing while charging money for the privilage of expounding. I would think that person would get your attacks. Oh, but no, I forgot, you agree with that person.

It's too bad this denigrated into these attacks. I really wanted to hear what was meant by active steering inputs increasing edge angles. We never got there though.

[Sam]

Lawyer from Chicago,

My impression John is that you are much too polite. In my view Rusty is a fraud, a coward and despicable. He uses back handed attacks that have no context to what is written or posted. Either he can?t read or his anger is so high that he loses focus.

Harald can be direct, but he is honest and straight forward. You get what you ask for in his posts. He doesn?t try to hide his feelings or knowledge. If he knows you are wrong, he tells you. If you are polite, he is polite in return, if you are an agitator for just that purpose, he calls you on it. He has every right to do so. Unfortunately Rusty has to resort to play ground tactics, sticks and stones antics

[Ott Gangl]

Aw shucks, can't we just all get along? There will always be some skiers that ski better than others. Should the better skiers look down on the lesser talented ones with disdain and disrespect? What does that say about the ski teaching industry?

....Ott

[John Mason]

Guten Tag Herr Ott

Lotta rain in Ohio! Nubs missed their opening day.

PMTS is a standards based skiing method with different standards than PSIA. The results are different. The goals are different. The difference lies in what happens to initiate turns. Where the pressure arc is in the turn. The role of direct steering. For a long time I thought the main thing that was different with PMTS was just the progression for beginners. I thought that by the time you got to be a top skier things were similar. This is true comparing PMTS to the top racers. But it does look to this up and comming beginner that the differences in the foundations result in differences at the end.

Yes, this does show up as differences in even the demo team members. It's objective. These differences are based on technique and not opinion. Is this good or bad? I'm a student and have to pick a direction. People can ski how they want. After spending 4 days in the instructor camp and observing the people skiing down the hill - both the top pmts people - the medium pmts people - and the more traditional instructor people coming down the hill, the style is indeed quite different. You can pick out a PMTS skier a long way away. It's not even hard to do.

The other interesting perspective was the number of very top PSIA people that were at the camp as students. They came to the PMTS camp to sharpen their skiing but are active PSIA people and instructors. Nothing wrong with that. One of the best PMTS instructors I had was and is also one of the best PSIA instructors. This instructor uses the primary movements in his own teaching and instructing. He may have even used them before Harald came along. But, most skiers and instructors do not. This person seems to be a pretty rare exception.

But, referencing Ott's comment, all these PSIA and PMTS and dual cert people at the camp, just got along great!

[Rusty Guy]

I think I can provide ample evidence of civil, pleasant, productive discussions with a variety of folks here in the not so recent past. Among them.....miles, skier synergy,etc.

I differ with Harald on one topic, that being steering. I presented a conversation with a former Europa Cup racer about the role of steering,linked an article from ski racing magazine, and cited a power point presentation/photos from a current US ski team coach Ron LeMaster. All done to support a contention that steering does occur at all levels of skiing.

Harald does not agree

Harald summed the discussion up as ridiculous THEN posted a diatribe that included the following quotes, finally calling for all his devotees to "drop this thread and move on".

Let's face it. It was an effort to scuttle the discussion.

Here are a few of the quotes;

?Modern skiing is not PSIA skiing and they will never be able to achieve cutting edge performance using their standards. They can't make turns the way high end racers do because their movement progression and understanding doesn't produce modern ski turns.?

?The skiing demonstrated in those videos, posted here, was pitiful and terrible. The movements were so poor that skiers with even a small amount of good experience and correct understanding see huge flaws.?

?We don't need PSIA's convoluted mix of random movements and maneuvers that lead? skiers down the frustrating path to mediocre skiing.?

Do you honestly think it reasonable to make broad based scathing comments such as these and not expect some retort? You mention play ground tactics/sticks and stones antics. Where do these fall into that spectrum?

I would also ask you to support your claim of fraud.

As a side bar......Rob Sogard is a demo team member. Weems is not. I can't seem to open the video in question, hence, I have not commented on their skiing . I have been told the skiing is in heavy fog, steeps, and generally marginal conditions. I will say this much. I know Weems is a pretty doggone good skier. I have never seen Rob ski, however, I bet his skiing rises above pitiful and terrible.

Lastly, I never suggested comparing the video of PMTS green certs to PSIA demo team members. My point was that there are PMTS certs that do not ALWAYS perform optimum movements or ideal skiing. In marginal conditions they may well present a product that someone might term "pitiful or terrible".

[harrison]

^are you retarded? i may not be the best ski racer in the world but i know that if you "steer" your skis around you can't even carve an effing turn

every time you post, you make youself sound stupid even to a 15 year old like me

[Ott Gangl]

Harrison, you are not helping the situation....Ott

[jclayton]

Rusty ,
don't you think we should agree to disagree , I support Haralds position from a point of view of logic and experience ( limited though it may be ) you're quite entitled to your point of view . Niether side is going to change , the discussion is not going anywhere .

All the evidence has been presented , the only thing remaining is a "duel at dawn" .

[Rusty Guy]

Rusty ,
don't you think we should agree to disagree , I support Haralds position from a point of view of logic and experience ( limited though it may be ) you're quite entitled to your point of view . Niether side is going to change , the discussion is not going anywhere .

All the evidence has been presented , the only thing remaining is a "duel at dawn" .

Certainly

[John Mason]

I was not aware that Ron was either a skier with WC experience or a US Ski Team race coach. I thought he was an excellent photographer that also runs seminars using his pictures that he has interpeted. (I also have his skiers edge book - nice pictures there too) He is also an cert PSIA instructor.

Rusty - you just stated he was a US ski team coach. Anyone with actual knowledge want to set that record straight?

But, more to the subject. Rusty, how does steering contribute? When you're specifically working to carve your turns top to bottom, do you use steering? If so, how and in what manner?

Is it inside ski at the top of the turn? Outside ski to shape the turn? How is "steering" accomplished? Is it direct rotary force using the large hip muscles? Is it indirect force by pointing the inside foot in?

Thanks ahead of time.

[Guest]

I was not aware that Ron was either a skier with WC experience or a US Ski Team race coach. I thought he was an excellent photographer that also runs seminars using his pictures that he has interpeted. (I also have his skiers edge book - nice pictures there too) He is also an cert PSIA instructor.

Rusty - you just stated he was a US ski team coach. Anyone with actual knowledge want to set that record straight?

But, more to the subject. Rusty, how does steering contribute? When you're specifically working to carve your turns top to bottom, do you use steering? If so, how and in what manner?

Is it inside ski at the top of the turn? Outside ski to shape the turn? How is "steering" accomplished? Is it direct rotary force using the large hip muscles? Is it indirect force by pointing the inside foot in?

Thanks ahead of time.

John,

He's in the book in Boulder. Very nice guy. He has worked with the US Ski Team at various times. I'm being serious when I suggest you give the guy a call. Tell him your a photographer. He's a nice man.

When I am carving from top to bottom do I steer or redirect the skis? No. I tip the skis on their edge.....of course. The primary movement? The feet. Am I trying to steer? No.....tip the skis. How? The movement begin with a little inversion of the new inside foot and depending upon speed, pitch, desired turn radius I'll blend these "primary" tipping movements with inclination.

In the past, any mention of the concept of inside leg steering has lead you to talk about skis diverging. Whether it is a basic parallel turn, wedge christie, or gliding wedge we (PSIA) focuses on inside leg steering. I can see how that would make you visualize divergence The goal is not to have convergence or divergence, however, having said that a little of either is nothing to spaz about. In reality it is both legs/feet turning under the pelvic structure. I really like Bob Barnes definition of steering. "Using muscles to control the direction the skis point. No more or no less."

Which muscles? I had enough course work in Kinesiology in college to be dangerous. I just pulled out Frederic Delavier's wonderful text on anatomy. The answer? Just about everyone when you consider concentric and eccentric movements. Sit in your chair, extend your leg until parallel to the floor and laterally rotate a fully extended leg. That's it in a nutshell.

When you ski with Ott I promise he can do a great demo. Next time your out here let's get together and explore a few things.