Harb Carver question

[Matt]

BB says "they turn because we steer them"

OMG Matt have you have found the achilles tendon of PMTS?

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/113 ... kates-turn

Please excuse any hint of sarcasm in my post.

Not really, but I do think there is a major difference between skiing and carving with wheels. On snow you get edge-locked carves if you tip enough. This is not true with wheels.

[Max_501]

With the carvers, I tip and they turn. I use the same PMTS movements I use for skiing.

[Matt]

With the carvers, I tip and they turn. I use the same PMTS movements I use for skiing.

If I tip my skis just a little they turn with the sidecut radius. If I tip them more them more they turn more (R*cosine(tipping angle)).

If I tip inlines/carvers just a little I argue that they turn very little. There is no sidecut radius of a carver.

There is definitely a difference

Is there any video of someone only tipping with carvers?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, even without trying I believe that carvers is the best dry land skiing around, but I still want to understand the turning mechanics. The reason I started to think about this is that I told be son to tip the inlines and nothing happened. I thought that I was only tipping, but there is more to it.

[Bolter]

but there is more to it.

If there is more to it, please tell us what it is.

Maybe . . . Resulant leg rotation from tipping that applies torque to the carvers but that is minimized by CA. WOW!

"Shut up and ski/carve!" Just kidding.

Man, I wish my area did not close on Sunday.

[Max_501]

On carvers, if I tip a little bit then I get a big arc. If I tip alot then I get a tight arc. Same thing happens on skis.

[Bolter]

On carvers, if I tip a little bit then I get a big arc. If I tip alot then I get a tight arc. Same thing happens on skis.

Yep, I find the same thing Max.

[rwd]

I believe that at least part of the mechanism of turning with inlines or carvers is precession, or the gyroscopic effect. This is usually demonstrated with a spinning bicycle wheel, where tilting the axle down to the left causes the wheel to turn in an arc to the left. The effect is probably less with the smaller skate wheel, and you need some speed for the effect to be felt. Once the turn has started, then the wheel shape and friction with the pavement may play a larger role.

[Matt]

but there is more to it.

If there is more to it, please tell us what it is.

Maybe . . . Resulant leg rotation from tipping that applies torque to the carvers but that is minimized by CA. WOW!

"Shut up and ski/carve!" Just kidding.

Man, I wish my area did not close on Sunday.

If I knew I wouldn't be asking.

If tipping is enough to get turning started, how would you explain the mechanics behind Landroller skates. They would be really awkward to ride if the camber thrust theory applies.

5 more weeks to go

[Max_501]

Don't know. All I can tell you is that carvers turn via tipping.

[cheesehead]

Motorcycles turn by tipping so having 2 wheels isn't a limitation.

[Matt]

Motorcycles turn by tipping so having 2 wheels isn't a limitation.

No, they turn by steering the front wheel. The tipping is for balance.

[rwd]

Motorcycles turn by tipping so having 2 wheels isn't a limitation.

No, they turn by steering the front wheel. The tipping is for balance.

See my previous post. Motorcycles or bicycles do not turn by turning the handlebars. If you are moving at speed and turn the bars to the left the bike will quickly lean right and then turn right after you return the bars to neutral position. This non-intuitive action can be used to make a quick emergency turn. It's almost like counteracting

[Carl R]

I believe that at least part of the mechanism of turning with inlines or carvers is precession, or the gyroscopic effect. This is usually demonstrated with a spinning bicycle wheel, where tilting the axle down to the left causes the wheel to turn in an arc to the left. The effect is probably less with the smaller skate wheel, and you need some speed for the effect to be felt. Once the turn has started, then the wheel shape and friction with the pavement may play a larger role.

No.

Motorcycles turn by tipping so having 2 wheels isn't a limitation.

No, they turn by steering the front wheel. The tipping is for balance.

See my previous post. Motorcycles or bicycles do not turn by turning the handlebars. If you are moving at speed and turn the bars to the left the bike will quickly lean right and then turn right after you return the bars to neutral position. This non-intuitive action can be used to make a quick emergency turn. It's almost like counteracting

Nononono.

[Matt]

If you steer the front wheel of a bicycle with, say 2 degrees, and then you incline the bike to a tipping angle of 90 degrees, the steering angle increases to 90 degrees. Of course it is more or less impossible to tip the bike to this angle, but it is clear to understand that by increasing the tipping angle from 0 to 90 degrees the steering angle goes from 2 to 90 degrees in a non-linear fashion. This is quite similar to how the theoretical turn radius of a ski decreases with tipping.

I suspect that there is something similar going on with carvers/skates, You establish a very small steering angle, and then by tipping that effect is greatly increased.

How the initial steering angle is achieved probably has different sources among different people. Camber thrust, femur rotation, foot steering skate divergence, fore-aft are factors that can interact to establish it. I can turn without tipping, and I can tip without turning, but to get a good flow both need to interact.

[cheesehead]

Motorcycles turn by tipping so having 2 wheels isn't a limitation.

No, they turn by steering the front wheel. The tipping is for balance.

f you are moving at speed and turn the bars to the left the bike will quickly lean right and then turn right after you return the bars to neutral position. ...

Turning the wheel to the left tips the bike to the right and turns it to the right. You can maintain the tipping with EITHER keeping the front wheel pointed to the outside of the turn, or maintaining the tipping with your body (or both). But releasing the wheel will reduce the tipping and stop the turn.

The front wheel turning to the outside is very much like counteracting.

(also, if you don't counterbalance you could lean too far into the turn and skid out or worse).

It seems to me that the PMTS opponents would learn a lot by trying out these movements on a motorcycle.