Blending - what really happens - what do PMTS'ers blend.

[jclayton]

First of all I don't believe the Earth is flat , if it was we wouldn't have had all that lovely crust movement making all those lovely mountains for us to ski on . Then we wouldn't get seasonal changes giving us the snow to play on . ( come to think of it , maybe we would have a permanent winter , but we would be reduced to cross country skiing all the time . Like having Language reduced to one word , Big Brothers aim in Orwells 1984 )

Secondly I'm still not convinced that Bode couldn't have done that turn ( a pretty ugly one at that ) without passive skidding , perceived leg angles etc etc .. from photos can be deceiving . BUT I will reserve my comments for a few weeks until I start the season and will have some fun experimenting with the techniques described . In my limited way of course .

Thirdly I don't have any particular axe to grind , I'm not a Flatearther or a Luddite , I love all the latest gear etc. But I like to look at things from a logical point of view weighing ( or un-weighing ) up all the evidence . Too much discussion now , time for practice , to put my ass on the line !

Fouthly I have to admit all this disagreement forces one to consider ones ideas from different points of view .

[Ott Gangl]

A racer can't depend on anything passive in the hope it might or might not happen. All movements are calculated and the skis are steered to where they need to go.

.....Ott

[jclayton]

Ott,
I guess we're getting into the interpretations again , an edged ski cannot be placed completely passively , the tipping , rebound unweighting have active elements . Look at the video of Von Gruenigen posted by Tommy , he is riding the edges beautifully , there is no way he could turn his legs actively with such precision ( or twist if you like ) at such speed. His resistence to the G forces , his timing of the release and edging to follow his intended line requires activity but trying to twist his knees would be akin to wrenching on a motorbikes handlebars at 100 mph , he would end up on his you know what ( as Bode all too often does )

Passive steering is just being used to contrast with twisting the legs or upper body to turn , not really using the side cut .

By the way I think it would be much more instructive watching a racer while training or drilling rather than in race mode . Look at the way racers adjust balance with their arms flailing , if I skied like that my technique would go out the window .

[Ott Gangl]

'Passive steering' is an oxymoron.

....Ott

[Rusty Guy]

jclayton,

please look at that photo and explain to all of us how Bodie's skis turned approximately 90 degrees in the space of ten feet at say 30 mph?

[Pierre]

I have no problem with Bob B's and Rusty's definition of steering. None what so ever. I have no problem with HH's definition of passive rotary either. They can be one in the same and when I think of efficient steering, they are one in the same. I have no problem with a racer like Bode using all forms of steering and twisting the feet to win. Where I see a problem is taking this to the general public.

The general public doesn't see steering as the same definition given by Rusty here. The general public will automatically think of steering the same way they think of steering anything that they are familiar with. Automatically that means twisting the feet where they want to go. This works great in a wedge turn where stability is the key balance mode but when transfered to more parallel skiing, the outside ski will twist far easier than the inside ski. This is mostly due to the fact that the student is still operating partially in stability mode and partially in dynamic balance mode. Any way you cut it, those students left all on their own, with little or no lessons beyond beginner, will learn to twist the outside ski the get it out from underneath them and turn.

This self taught beyond beginner skier will either quit or want steeper more thrilling terrain. As soon as they can survive the terrain, most will venture onto this terrain. This automatically means they learn defensive skiing all by themselves.

By the time this skier comes to us for an upper level lesson they are well entrenched in skidding defensive skiing with poor inside foot skills and want us to perform a miracle so they can ski the steep terrain. Since the steep terrain is where they are seeing their problems that is where they expect us to take them and perform our little magic and give them tips to turn much better on the spot.

At the resort that I am currently at, they teach only direct parallel, not PMTS. There is still some emphasis on rotary but not in a wedge. The results are still markedly different from wedge progression skiers. The skiers take a bit more time to really get going but are for the most part, parallel. Their mistakes are more like upper body rotation and linked hockey stops vs wedge christy. They are operating in dynamic balance mode.

One of the results is those students don't come back for lessons as quickly and the kid students are perfectly set up to become terminal park rats. They already operate in dynamic balance mode and use upper body rotary. This can be seen as bad but it is not perceived as bad by the general public.

I would like to see less emphasis on rotary in the direct parallel methods we currently teach at our resort. I think we would have even more luck. I am in a wait and see mode. I am much more directly involved with where the direction of our ski program is going than I was at the other resort.

I cannot discount the fact that PMTS students can be a rabid bunch. I don't think that is just from indoctrination against PSIA. Americans are subjected daily to every conceivable form of yellow journalism. You can indoctrinate but with Americans, if you don't deliver they quickly write off anything you say. I have not run into an instructor who is schooled in PMTS who does not think it has substantial merit.

[jclayton]

Ott,
would it be clearer if I said " passive turning " as against " active steering " . I think most people understand what I am saying anyway .

Rusty,
in the PMTS videos there are numerous examples of " brushed carves " , still brought about by tipping rather than twisting . Anyway I'm not denying the possibility of steering movements I just don't think it's necessarily a given . I can't explain what Bode is doing to my own satisfaction which is why I said I'll try it out on the mountain , and have some fun in the meantime .

I agree with Pierre , there's not much point in using an extreme situation on a race course to promote active steering movements . Learners need balance training more than anything else . (Why not focus on Von Gruenigens turns ?)

[*SCSA]

I came back to post (just this once) because I wouldn't want you all to go sideways.

I retire from posting more than Michael Jordan.

I skied with Rusty and Bob. Rusty makes nice turns, Barnes rips.

They showed me steering, it worked. I was able to make tighter turns than before they showed me. So, steering works, no doubt.

Then I emailed John Mason, told him about my discovery. John then reminded me about the inside hip (PMTS stuff), that I could accomplish the same tight turn, this way. So I went back to the hill, thought about what John told me.

It worked better. The PMTS way, worked better for me. Why? Because with how Rusty and Bob showed me, I had to take my eyes away from downhill -- I had to look across the hill. I don't like that. I like to keep all thoughts -- and eyes -- downhill. Yesterday I followed the Apprentice. I was able to stay right behind him, using my inside hip -- keeping it higher than my downhill hip. The Apprentice was rippin, I was right on his arse. It was outtasight.

PMTS folks, kicks arse. Rusty. The next time we ski together I'll now show you, something!

So John Mason took my turns up a notch. See folks? That's why (one of many reasons) why PMTS rocks. Students can help each other. I might gone the whole year, making my lousy turns. But John Mason saved me.

Finally, I was at the PMTS party at Copper yesterday. Drank too much, but I don't think I said anything too, over the top. Got to meet lotsa nice folks, it was a gas. You guys are on fire! I'd have stayed longer, but I had to get home to Zelda and Elway, those doggies of mine (they're so beautiful). Ya see, if I stay gone too long, Zelda doesn't like it. The other day she chewed up my Redwing boots. Last night when I came home she had another pair of my shoes, ready to eat. She was letting me know, "If you stay gone too long, I hate it, so I'm gonna make you pay". Or, she'll go pee where I do my stretches. She's so beautiful (Elway is so handsome. Although I am a little disappointed he supported Bush).

I'm off to the Big Show today, it's opening day. I'll be at the Beav tomorrow. As always, any of you he/she/its come out here and are nearby (The Big Show, Hasbeen, Slummit County) look me up. Would love to make turns with ya.

You know, I have to tell ya. Here I am up here at the Bunkhouse. I ski Vail and Aspen. If you'd have showed me my life when I was a kid, I'd have been like "I'll take it". Now, I'm living the dream.

It's outtasight.

See you on the slopes...
be groovy,

[*SCSA]

One more thang, because this is important for anyone out there in keyboard land whose followed us he/she/its. This little soap opera of ours...

Barnes's skis were 1cm longer than mine. That weasel!

So, as always, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain".

[jclayton]

SCSA,
what kind of doggies do you have ?

[Ott Gangl]

Hi SCSA, now you know both ways, isn't that better than just knowing either one alone??? Missed you...

....Ott

[jclayton]

Ott,
you seem to forget that most of us have gone through the "other system " already . For many years .

[Ott Gangl]

I must have misunderstood, didn't SCSA say he learned something new from Bob Barnes and Rusty and then also from John Mason? If it wasn't new to him why did he say so? Sorry...

....Ott

[*SCSA]

Yes Ott, it is.

I can't hang around here. I have to lurk. Only in emergency, can I post. After all, I do have a following -- those that depend on my typing and have been following me all these years. grins:

That's why I'm posting now. I couldn't let anyone get sideways on the steering issue. Steering works, no doubt about it. But now that I'm dialed in -- Mason saved me -- my turns are cookin. I'm just huggin, the snow. It feels great. How? Not by steering. I'm just standing hard on my downhill foot and tipping my inside foot waaaaaaay over, while pulling it back. By doing so, I'm naturally getting my inside hip up, which is the key to getting a tight arc, even on ice. I"m stacked over my skis, grippin the hill.

It's a better turn this way, for me, anyway. It feels better to me. I think it looks better too, for whatever that's worth. So I think that closes the issue on steering. For some skiers, they may like it. But me, I'd rather do it the PMTS way. Matter of fact, I think I can get a tighter turn ala PMTS. Less fatigue, too. Just glidin, from one set of edges to the other.

"I caught you knockin at my cellar door..."

If I hung out here, I'd never get anything done. I love you he/she/its, you know that. Hey man, come see. I'm easy. I'll go skiing anytime.

[Guest]

Yes Ott, it is.

I can't hang around here. I have to lurk. Only in emergency, can I post. After all, I do have a following -- those that depend on my typing and have been following me all these years. grins:

That's why I'm posting now. I couldn't let anyone get sideways on the steering issue. Steering works, no doubt about it. But now that I'm dialed in -- Mason saved me -- my turns are cookin. I'm just huggin, the snow. It feels great. How? Not by steering. I'm just standing hard on my downhill foot and tipping my inside foot waaaaaaay over, while pulling it back. By doing so, I'm naturally getting my inside hip up, which is the key to getting a tight arc, even on ice. I"m stacked over my skis, grippin the hill.

It's a better turn this way, for me, anyway. It feels better to me. I think it looks better too, for whatever that's worth. So I think that closes the issue on steering. For some skiers, they may like it. But me, I'd rather do it the PMTS way. Matter of fact, I think I can get a tighter turn ala PMTS. Less fatigue, too. Just glidin, from one set of edges to the other.

"I caught you knockin at my cellar door..."

If I hung out here, I'd never get anything done. I love you he/she/its, you know that. Hey man, come see. I'm easy. I'll go skiing anytime.

SCSA and all,

Lets not forget. Steering is just.....steering. Using muscles to point skis. Tipping the skis largely involves an intent to not point the skis in another direction.

I think you misunderstood what Bob was attempting to show you. I don't know where to begin to eliminate the POSSIBLE confusion.

One drill that Bob had you do is 1000 steps. The reasons for this drill are multi-faceted. The most obvious benefit was/is to involve the "inside half" of your body in a more pronounced manner. What I wish you could have seen was the angulation and inclination that you exhibited doing the drill. Now before anyone suggests angulation is taboo I will simply say angulation is something that exists in skiing, we do create angles, and along with inclination it is a part of good skiing.

Think of angulation and inclination as parts of the reipe. Sometimes a dash is called for, sometimes a pinch, and sometimes a dollup! Keep in mind, 1000 steps is not skiing. It is a DRILL designed to create specific movements. ONE, and only ONE, of the movements is lateral rotation of the inside foot......steering! The other is tipping of the inside foot. The neat thing about the drill is it teaches both. The real beauty of the drill is that it facillitates;

1.movement

2. the reality of intent dictating technique

Here is the tricky part. When we seek to tip the skis and carve, it is critical that steering carefully regulated.

Think of it in these terms. I want to STRESS the percentages are simply hypothetical;

Carved turns- 99% tipping-1% steering
Steered turns-1% tipping-99%steering

You mention getting your inside foot "tipped over". Keep in mind steering is "using muscles to point the skis in a particular direction". Tipping the ski over is a different movement that does involve redirecting or pointing the ski.

I'll diverge for one second. One of my criticisms of any teaching that involves the creation of a stance foot or involves an early redistribution of weight or pressur also involves the effect on the inside foot. My experience has been that when a stance foot is created and the inside foot is light, it tends to make it more difficult to eliminate rotation from the inside ski.

Remember when I talked about what I have observed involving the tail of the inside ski lapping over and crossing the tail of the outside ski? You don't often have the issue for two reasons. Your stance is narrow ( I didn't say that in a critical manner) and you have the skill to eliminate unwanted rotary movements.

Lastly you have alluded to a high inside hip and alignment creating "bite". Critical edge angle or the right angle to hold a turn or make a turn is just that.....critical. There is no doubt that a high outside hip or high outside shoulder can "upset the apple cart". That isn't a component of one type of ski teaching vs. another.

It's merely good alignment!

I'm glad your fired up about your turns. Winter is upon us and there is lots of good skiing in front of all of us. I appreciate your kind words, the friendship, and your efforts to create harmony.

Winter will be a great deal more fun if we all "GET TOGETHER" and spend time exploring concepts.

The criticism on both sides is often unwarranted, largely unproductive, needless, etc.

Hope to see you soon.