Blending - what really happens - what do PMTS'ers blend.

[John Mason]

I bring up this subject because it's come up. If you "blend" steering forces to a carving ski, what happens?

You can try this yourself in a doorway.

Position yourself square up in a doorway (square means hips pointing the direction you are going).

Now, supporting yourself in the door, edge your imaginary skis. Ok, now you have a "carve" going. Now, apply steering forces to tighten the turn.

What happens? Your edge angles will increase resulting in a tightening turn.

Is this good?

Look down at your knees. Where did they go when you blended this steering action in. They went to the inside of the turn. Your hips are still square.

I was taught both at race camp this summer (a psia camp) and in PMTS, that knee pointing caused by either blending in steering movements, or by pointing your knees in, puts your knees at risk and is considered a very week position in racing.

Will a student playing with "blended" movements experience higher edge angles? Yep. Should it be done? I'm too much of a beginner to comment. I'm just commenting on my own experiments with this and why I avoid it.

Is there another way to increase edge angles yet keep your knees in a strong position? Sure.

While still standing in the doorway, release your "blended steering forces", so that your skis edge angles match your body angle. Now let your hips point slightly to the outside of your turn. What happens? You get the same or even better edge angles the "blended steering" created yet your knees are still strong. (you can feel this difference in your knees - very easily)

In PMTS I blend inside foot tipping, pressure between the two skis (more on the outside the more it goes into reverse camber), counterbalancing (C shape of the body), and counter (hips to the outside of the turn). I don't mix in steering forces as this results in immediate knee angulation. I'm too old to start having knee issues.

The Javelin turn is an execise that very easily forces a "countered" hip posistion and illustrates the great edge angles this creates.

Over on Epic there was a recent post of Bode. Bode is about 20 degrees countered in the shot but his knees are all aligned. Great edge angles are the result.

Blend what you will, but why purposely blend in steering while carving turns?

[Rusty Guy]

John,

I don't have much time to weigh in on the topic right now. I will simply say at this point the whole issue of rotary movements and/or steering strikes me as being akin to debating whether the world is flat or round.

The world is round and skis can be turned.

Skis are turned by beginners, intermediates, experts, WC racers, bump skiers, etc. You have been convinced any steering or rotation is horrific. You are too bright a guy to fall for this simple fallacy.

As your skiing progresses and you venture into the wonderful bump runs in Colorado I will suggest you will learn how to redirect your skis. Fly up to Jackson and drop into Corbetts and again I will suggest you better have fairly good rotary skills. For that matter come join us at Loveland up on some of the chutes off chair nine when there is four inches of wind slab on top of bottomless powder.

There seem to be individuals who want to insist steering or rotary movements are detrimental to skiing prowess. Others want to go so far as to say WC racers NEVER redirect or turn their skis and that they merely proceed from carved turn to carved turn.

Having said this, there is a great deal of truth in what you wrote. At high speeds and in certain circumstances knees can be subject to stress. At slow speeds and/or moderate speeds the minor stresses placed on the knee, while a femur rotates under the pelvis, are hardly dangerous.

I assure you every skier moves there knees medially or laterally during the course of a run down a mountain. The knee is a hinge joint and the only way this happens is due to the small amount of rotation allowed by the tib/fibs and the rotation of the femurs.

I'll ask a rhetorical question. Imagine skiing down a slight slope.....a green run if you will at 10 mph. The pitch and speed are such that a carved turn is not particularly dynamic. The turn is slow enough that there is little need to "counter" to create the high edge angle you have described. Why not steer with the inside knee? Why not have that in your arsenal of weapons?

Taken to an extreme, inside leg steering can become excessive. I will also assure you that there are a lot of skiers who become "locked" by being overly countered. Either taken to an extreme is no good.

Any movement in skiing can be like a single malt scotch. A little is great....too much can make a mess of things

[Rusty Guy]

I went to close my computer and saw the picture of Peter K on the home page. That is a good demo of the turn I describe above.

[John Mason]

Peter's hips are facing the camera. - He is way countered in that shot.

Not a good example at all for what you're saying.

My concern is as expressed. I am concerned about what we were told not to do at the PSIA tech team ran race camp. You may want to narrow this discussion to a PMTS anti-rotarian position, I was coming from a much wider context of just plan good vs dangerous ways to accomplish high edge angles. If you are carving turns and that is your goal (now we have a context) and you want to tighten the turn, steering a carving ski actually makes your knees point in and is a weak position for your knees. It's also unnessesary.

There are other better ways to acheive higher edge angles as I mentioned above. Peter is illustrating one of them in the homepage shot you mention. Peter is in a countered position. He is not getting his edge angles with knee angulation.

A similar mis-reading of counter was all over the place on the Epic post with the picture of Bode. He was countered too. Forget the hands and head. You can immediately judge counter by looking at where the hips are pointed. Hips are not flexible. You point the hips outward the edge angles go way up. Look at the hips. Peter is no way square over his skis with his hips.

[Rusty Guy]

I would not call that "way countered". I suspect the picture was chosen because he is very nicely aligned. His knees, thighs, hips, forearms, appear from my vantage point to be parallel.

I mentioned the photo because I noted a slight angle created between his lower leg and upper leg. It appears to the untrained eye that the knee is "angulated".

It isn't.....as noted ad nauseum. It is due to rotation of the leg, something you seem obsessed with denying.

Skip the photo and let's touch on two points.

Do you think world class bump skiers don't turn their skis? Sometimes they do it very quickly and abruptly.

Have you ever watched film of the World Extreme skiing championships that have been hosted at Crested Butte? Would you care to suggest those competitors don't turn, redirect, or rotate their skis. They do it for one reason. In order to live to see another day.

Please come and pay me a visit at Eldora. We have an area called West Ridge. It is a 700-1000 couloir. Typically once a year someone dies in the area and there is signage outlining the risks.

You will turn your skis quickly on West Ridge and you won't linger long in the fall line.

John you can believe what you want, however, the next time you pay us a visit I'll be more than happy to line up a host of pretty fair skiers who will refute your denial of rotation.

Tipping the skis on edge is just one facet of modern skiing.

[Rusty Guy]

I'll add this article and photo

http://www.skiracing.com/news/news_display.php/1905/

[Pierre]

I bring up this subject because it's come up. If you "blend" steering forces to a carving ski, what happens?

You can try this yourself in a doorway.

Position yourself square up in a doorway (square means hips pointing the direction you are going).

Now, supporting yourself in the door, edge your imaginary skis. Ok, now you have a "carve" going. Now, apply steering forces to tighten the turn.

What happens? Your edge angles will increase resulting in a tightening turn.

Is this good?

Look down at your knees. Where did they go when you blended this steering action in. They went to the inside of the turn. Your hips are still square.

John I would beg to differ with you on you're example. You took a static exercise and made it even more static by standing in a doorway. When sliding on skis, we have a dynamic situation with little or no friction in the fore and aft plane. Do the same exercise while moving on skis and (due to action/reaction) the hips will move towards the outside of the turn flatening the skis and moving the CM to the rear. The result is tip disengagement and skidding rather than edge angle increase.

Over on Epic there was a recent post of Bode. Bode is about 20 degrees countered in the shot but his knees are all aligned. Great edge angles are the result.

Blend what you will, but why purposely blend in steering while carving turns?

I think that looking at shots and footage of ski racers for the average skier is akin to watching a presidential polititican in order to gain moral values. Both the ski racer and the polititican can and will do anything to win. What you see may or may not be what you can and should do.

As time goes on I am becoming a bigger fan of direct parallel methods. Rotary will happend whether it is taught denied or just plain ingnored. I can fully understand Rusty's position and I can fully understand HH's position. I don't think that active leg steering movements are all that easy to control and require precise eye foot coordination. I think active leg steering is really cool but, in my opinon, is really and upper level skill reserved for black level and above.

If we lighten our inside ski, tip it towards the little toe edge and shift our CM forward so that pressure moves towards the ball of our foot, powerful rotary forces will build along the ski without transmitting that rotary force up through the body. This is passive rotary and I do not think we have to talk about it. Passive rotary is far easier to control than active leg steering.

The problem with active leg steering is that these forces must be balanced against a dynamic upper body. In skiing, dynamically stable upper bodies are something that comes with real advancement in skiing.

Teach ligtening, tipping and CM movements to the lower levels and reserve the active leg steering for very advanced levels of skiing. We at the upper level, know that active leg steering is way cool, so cool at times that we just can't help but design systems to bring it to beginners without realizing what impact it may be having.

[John Mason]

John I would beg to differ with you on you're example. You took a static exercise and made it even more static by standing in a doorway. When sliding on skis, we have a dynamic situation with little or no friction in the fore and aft plane. Do the same exercise while moving on skis and (due to action/reaction) the hips will move towards the outside of the turn flatening the skis and moving the CM to the rear. The result is tip disengagement and skidding rather than edge angle increase.

You could be right. I can see that. Interestingly, I was paraphrasing what was taught to a friend recently. BB on Epic uses his two sheets of paper vs one sheet of paper example to show that on one sheet what you said would be true, but on two sheets you can move them wherever you want. Sounds like it breaks physics, but you can try it then explain it.

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=75

Given the two sheets of paper example working emperically, then you can see that you can rotate the legs into the turn. Doing so will increase edge angles. At least this is what my friend was shown and taught. MilesB also chimed in (SI's most basic movement thread on Epic) and recognized this works but warned that it's dangerous on the knees. His phrase was a little goes a long way.

So if direct leg steering flattens the skis than why was my friend taught as a primary means of tightening turns? He was taught and felt it increasing edge angles.

On the other hand, if direct leg steering does increase edge angles, is it the best approah to acheiveing higher edge angles. What are the pros and cons.

I don't think that active leg steering movements are all that easy to control and require precise eye foot coordination. I think active leg steering is really cool but, in my opinon, is really and upper level skill reserved for black level and above.

If we lighten our inside ski, tip it towards the little toe edge and shift our CM forward so that pressure moves towards the ball of our foot, powerful rotary forces will build along the ski without transmitting that rotary force up through the body. This is passive rotary and I do not think we have to talk about it. Passive rotary is far easier to control than active leg steering.

Right on. You can generate all the rotary you need this way. As Eski points out in his All Mountain book, this phantom move and resulting rotation works even in hop turns in a narrow chute. Sets you up better for landing than simple active leg steering.

Teach ligtening, tipping and CM movements to the lower levels and reserve the active leg steering for very advanced levels of skiing. We at the upper level, know that active leg steering is way cool, so cool at times that we just can't help but design systems to bring it to beginners without realizing what impact it may be having.

Like Rusty said on the bump skiing, sure people use active rotary. The question is where is it's place. Does it belong as the quiver of tools to tighten and control the shape of a carved turn as a normal thing to do?

Your opinion is that rotary is over focused on for beginners and intermediates. I would agree with that.

Rusty says rotary is used by people when they ski. I agree with that.

I think the passive rotary you describe can be used for things like bump skiing. Craig McNeil focus on this phantom move created rotary as he continues to bump ski as he gets older. He does not promote active leg steering for bump skiing in his book. Now the fastest way to do a bump run might involve active leg steering. But, that again, has little to do with what I was bringing up. Us non-racers are out to have fun and ski and keep our knees intact. Craig makes a strong case in his book for going after and using the safer passive rotary.

Rusty - Pierre says Bob's style of two paper leg turning won't increase edge angles in a turn, but rather will flatten the skis.

Sounds like you two disagree.

I'm off to ski for 6 days with no internet. Have fun with the thread.

Remember, the topic I was bringing up wasn't - no rotary at all costs, it was, what are the pros and cons of using active leg steering to increase edge angles of a carved turn. Pierre has staked out a position that to me sounds contrary to what BB and Rusty are saying, that this rotary does not increase edge angles.

Rusty, you keep defending that rotary occurs and people use it in skiing. I'm more interested on your thoughts relevant to the subject I brought up. Rusty, do you teach or believe contrary to what Pierre said that steering - active leg steering - increases edge angles in a carved turn? So far I can't tell where you stand. Pierre says this does not increase edge angles in real life, but only in a doorway.

I leave for a week of skiing and leave all with this relevant post by HH on controlling the shape of a turn without movements that result in dangerous knee angulation.

http://www.harbskisystems.com/olk1.htm

If I can turn like this after my 6 days I'll be a happy camper!

I'M GOING SKIING TOMORROW! YIPEE!! (its flat and 50 here in Indiana - so for me this is a big deal) - Have fun all!

[Pierre]

Now hold on there John M. I don't disagree with BB or Rusty as much as you think. The mere act of indendent leg rotation will flatten the skis in a dynamic situation however CM movements and increasing tongue/pressure will increase the edge. Along with a rotary steering motion, the edge will continue to increase and tighten the turn.

What I am saying is this edge increase with rotary steering does not happen in real life with beginners. It takes acurrate independent movements of the CM along with independent leg action. This is fine motor skills that do not transfer well to beginners.

Lets throw one more snag in the game. Rotary steering does transfer well to beginners using stability as their primary mode vs dynamic balance. That means that rotary works well in a wedge turn but does not transfer well when the skier moves to a parallel situation where dynamic balance is the primary mode. This change from stable to dynamic, with rotary the principle skill learned, creates roadblocks for many skiers.

What many do not realize is that the real turning mechanism when the skis are not making a perfect carve is "differential braking". More drag is created on the inner ski verses the outer ski. Your basic bulldozer effect. The shovel of a ski creates far more drag than the tail of the ski. If we use the outer ski as a stance ski and engage the shovel of our inner ski we create more drag on the inner ski and tighten the turn. Simple as that. Independent leg steering is a high level skill and way of modifiying turns.

Do I think that PMTS should include this independent leg steering in upper level skiing? I really think that upper level skiers discover independent leg steering all on their own with no help. I think it is natural enough that everyone discovers its fantastic uses. All we can do is confuse the beginners as they are hell bent on reading and jumping the gun to the upper level lessons. They read the upper level lessons then watch the racers and go right out on the hill and twist the back of their outside ski outward.

Many do disagree with what I am saying but not on the mechanics involved.

[milesb]

My experience has always been that active leg steering allows a tight radius turn WITHOUT high edge angles. I don't get the increase in edge angles.

[Rusty Guy]

My experience has always been that active leg steering allows a tight radius turn WITHOUT high edge angles. I don't get the increase in edge angles.

Well said and kudos for being succinct.

Lets cut to the chase.I like Bob Barnes very simple definition.

"Steering is using muscles to control the direction the skis point. No more. No less"

I'll stop there. Note: I made no mention of edge angles.

[jclayton]

Again , different interpretations of the word steering . BB's definition could include all manner of direction changes such as just tipping , muscles are involved even if only in the foot .

The whole point of reducing active steering motions is to remove some nasty habits from our basics so we don't rely on wasteful movements , mainly for us late starters and beginners . If we choose to include these movements later it's up to us . Skiersynergy's comment about effectively using passive steering in emergencies in another post is an eyeopener , especially coming from someone with his experience ( and schooling in TTS ) .

As in the post on un-weighting , the emphasis is and , from an athletic point of view , should be , on balance . It is obviously harder to balance when using gross muscle actions .

Active steering can be fun , e.g. spinning around with nuetral balance etc... but , for me at least , it is peripheral to basic turning technique and the quest for better balance while turning .

Oops , I pressed the wrong button , hence the double post .

Again the use of the article on Bode to show active steering . Sliding doesn't necessarily mean active steering , I don't know how this is deduced from a photo . Rusty , you say it's obvious , not to me it's not . Also Bode makes no mention of steering actively in the article , more imaginative interpretation .

[Guest]

Again the use of the article on Bode to show active steering . Sliding doesn't necessarily mean active steering , I don't know how this is deduced from a photo . Rusty , you say it's obvious , not to me it's not . Also Bode makes no mention of steering actively in the article , more imaginative interpretation .

I was hoping someone would say that. There are three figures in the montage at the top of the page. Let's assume Bodie is moving conservatively at 25-30 mph.

Look at where his skis point in figure two and in figure three. He has moved......perhaps five feet. If that doesn't demonstrate active steering of the skis I do not know what does.

Why do you guys keep insisting the world is flat!!!!!

[Rusty Guy]

forgot to add my username

[BigE]

Look at where his skis point in figure two and in figure three. He has moved......perhaps five feet. If that doesn't demonstrate active steering of the skis I do not know what does.

Why do you guys keep insisting the world is flat!!!!!

Exactly! Look at the hips and upper body in relation to the femur. The femur has changed position, yet the upper body has not. The ski's did not carve their way into this state, they were actively steered.