Blending - what really happens - what do PMTS'ers blend.

[Rusty Guy]

as usual....forgot to add username above

[Rusty Guy]

[quote="Anonymous Tipping the ski over is a different movement that does involve redirecting or pointing the ski.
[/quote]

The above SHOULD HAVE read DOES NOT involve redirecting the ski.

As I sit here editing , it would be more accurate to say "may not involve". We can tip and steer or we can merely tip. Tipping the ski and steering to any large degree will disrupt the mythical "pure carved turn".

Also...keep in mind the percentages were purely hypothetical. Cited to posit the potential polarity.

[milesb]

Rusty what do you think about the concept presented in the past that steering upsets balance? Which is one reason why it is not a "Primary Movement". I believe that Harb, SkiSynergy, and Pierre have all stated this in some form.
Also, your percentage thing is in direct contradiction to what PMTS teaches, which would be:
Carved turns-100% tipping, 0% steering
Non carved turns- 100% tipping, 0% steering
(You got the steered turn one right!)

I admit, I don't really mentally understand how it works (even though Harb has explained it here to many other people's satisfaction), but it does. Ask Alice, sometimes you gotta drink the Kool-Aid to see Wonderland.

[Ott Gangl]

Miles, you mean all a new skier has to do to carve or to skid is tip the skis? That shouldn't be too hard to do, matter of fact it probaly is the easiets.
Why bother with ski school, just go out there and tip/roll your skis onto their edges.

....Ott

[Rusty Guy]

I'm not sure how to respond to the blanket statement the "steering upsets balance".

I suppose my initial reaction is to say there are lot's of things that upset balance in skiing.......crud, bumps, merely making a turn!

On the subject of the percentages. I firmly believe any inversion of the inside foot or eversion of the outside foot ALSO involves rotation, dorsiflexion, and plantar flexion. It's tri planar.

That's why I like to leave the 1% steering in the equation. Now I toss a real wrench in the works. Sit in your chair and invert either foot. Roll it towards your......LTE.

I will suggest that this movement is typicallymn and inherently a "toeing in" movement.

[John Mason]

just checking in

Diana is in a FIS race at Breck tommorrow at which the US womens national team will also be competing.

My B5's got swipped (gotta love copper on the weekends)

Rusty - you can tip without pointing in - in fact if you point in, you won't get your two clean lines in the snow at transition.

Ott - you're right, tipping alone won't get you carving. You won't have enough edge angles. Add counterbalance and counter to taste.

Any and all, Jay sitting here with me is gonna do a line drawing on peter for you as he agrees peter is way countered.

He has his theories as to why people might not see that. But, he can speak for himself later.

Oh, anyone want to ski at Loveland on Monday. I and Jay and two other PMTS's will be sking there.

(if Jay indeed changes his flight)

[John Mason]

Pierre was right.

Jay educated me and showed me that when you add leg steering to a carved turn, you actually create pressure on your foot in such a way that the heel rolls flat.

Thus, what can it add to the turn but tail wash out.

Oh, tommorrow my coach is Arcmeister from Epic. What fun! He is a truely knowledgable guy.

(and a great water skier too as I saw on video tonight)

[Rusty Guy]

Rusty - you can tip without pointing in - in fact if you point in, you won't get your two clean lines in the snow at transition.

AT transition there will be no lines in the snow.

Note that I said inherently.

So in order to not "toe in" what must one do?

[Pierre]

John Masons definition of steering = pivoting or twisting the feet. In fact that is the definition of all PMTS people.

Rusty Guys definition of steering in a scarved turn = using active movements to create what Harb calls passive rotary. Rusty also includes on a different level pivoting if that is the intention of the skier.

As long as both side hold firm so will these arguments.

[milesb]

Ott, unlike the instructors here, I am only interested in the "doing" part. How it's done, why it works (or doesn't work), interpretations, applications etc. How to teach beginners is none of my concern, nor is the debate about which method is better for them. Because it's been a long time since I was a beginner, and I (probably!) won't be one again. And I don't have any intentions of teaching skiing to beginners.

Rusty, I don't have disagreement with what you say happens when the inside foot is tipped (otherwise the tips would cross all the time!), but I think you are playing word games. From what I understand, tipping the free ski sets up an entirely different chain reaction than tipping and pointing, or just pointing the free ski. Ski Synergy's post about this really set off a (dim) light in my head http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... 2f93043197 ,
Pierre's post on page 1 of this thread gave me a "So that's what I feel" moment, specifically about steered turns requiring more dynamics from me. Now Harb and Jay have stated very clearly that it is completely unnecessary for all mtn skiing. Which is why I am making a special effort this year to try to do all my skiing by tipping the free ski, even in all the goofy stuff I like to do. So far the verdict is that it works...somewhat. But at this point I don't know if it is because of a lack of skill on my part. So are these guys right or wrong in your opinion?

[John Mason]

Arcmeister was a great instructor. He demo'd the "worm turn". I wish I had a notepad for all the funny and instructive sayings he has in his head.

Depending on the turn the lines in the snow are either:

Super Phantom: mostly outside line, before transition, the line has already moved to the new outside ski (at that point the uphill ski). The ski rolls over as you stand on it while you are activily tipping your free foot.

Weighted Release: Just the opposite of above. You tip your weighted outside ski while flexion occurs shortening the leg, but pressure remains. There is no shift early to the uphill ski of the pressure. As the new turn begins the same line continues except the carving is on the inside ski until the outside ski loads in the turn and then takes over the pressure. In this release, there is no break in the lines. They are a continuous track that shift with a large overlap.

The above turns can be mixed for a very two footed style. The common points are flexion of the outside ski before transition occurs and active tipping of the downhill foot.

Carving the top of the turn is not done by most skiers. Arc (Roger) explained that most people carve the bottom of the turn and pressure is greatest there. What he was moving us towards was moveing that pressure relationship higher up the turn so that greatest pressure was at the fall line. After the fall line that pressure is replaced by flexion of the downhill ski and is used/converted to move your body over your skis for the next turn. Also, instead of counter happenning by itself at the bottom of the turn, Arc had us move it to the top of the turn so the top of the turn is edged strongly.

Two things Arc said that helped me a lot and I'll continue to work on, we did railroad turns to carved turns as a smooth progression with multiple coaches over the 4 days of the camp. Arc had us focus on much stronger LTE tipping by feeling the top of our foot strongly against our boot while tipping. The second thing was to simply stand and extend the outside foot while the other one was tipping. Not to think tip or to tip actively at all on the outside foot. That extension was missing for me somewhat. After that adjustment the railroad turns became much more dynamic and fluid for me. He really has an understanding of how the kinetic chain works and how that stance foot vs the free foot operate. Tip the free foot, just stand on the other one. Maximum pressure and extension when you're at the fall line of the turn. Cool stuff.

If you feel maximum pressure at the bottom of your turn then the energy to fling you into the next turn is lost.

It was a great camp. (2 former national demo team members were at the camp (3 if you include Harald), lots of Certs from all "denominations".

Jay has a quote from one of the national demo team members that is a direct comment on the subject of this post. But I don't want to mess up the quote.

[Harald]

Looks like some posters are getting the 101 readers course for foot and ankle movement. I applaud the effort, but let?s not make broad based statements without experience in evaluation and practical application with different anatomys under your belt. Isn?t it nice to be an expert after a few stabs at the old anatomy manuals?

Some here have been reading too much and not evaluating and analyzing movement correctly. Everting does not require toe redirection or pointing, neither does inverting. I wrote a complete bio-mechanical explaination some weeks ago for a post responding to foot steering or pointing if you are interested in the mechanics. If you use tipping from turn to turn and counteracting movements, you are in a closed kinetic chain state. The foot or ankles do not have the power to point with the whole ski on edge. Controlling the ski in transition is the secret. PMTS movements will give you that control, if you use PSIA transitions, you will achieve toe pointing. We prefer to avoid it for the advanced levels and for those seeking the advanced levels.

Turning the foot and steering the inside ski, foot and leg does cause complete loss of body and skeletal alignment (angulation) to the ski. You will demonstrate some toe pointing if you are not using counteracting movements with the proper kinetic chain reaction or if you have a poor foot bed and alignment set up. You may force toe pointing with eversion on a bad foot bed, (rigid under the arch as per Sure foot and Super feet) but that can only be determined after a proper bio-mechanical evaluation.

You will cause toe pointing with leg steering emphasis. The gross motor muscles over powering the fine tuning motor muscles as per PSIA skiing model. Blanket statements like eversion causes toe pointing, are in the same category as, you can?t turn without steering. In fact, you actually move to arrest steering in performance skiing, if that?s what you are after. But not everyone is after performance in their skiing. This is clearly demonstrated on the slopes.

[Rusty Guy]

PMTS movements will give you that control, if you use PSIA transitions, you will achieve toe pointing. We prefer to avoid it for the advanced levels and for those seeking the advanced levels.

It's statements like that that make you wonder.

[Harald]

Wondering is a good thing; it may be the first step in right direction to help you overcome your dogma, closed mindedness and confusion.

[Harald]

Why is it that you rarely have much to say about the meat of the content, but you always have plenty of weak attempts at innuendo.