Unweighting

PMTS Forum

Postby BigE » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:23 am

The normal use of the term "unweighting" involves both skiis, not just a shift of balance. Lifting/lightening a ski does not qualify as "unweighting".

Now that I think of it, I suggest that the passive rotation/pivoting of the skis happens quite a bit, assited only by rebound unweighting and/or retraction.

eg. you can do a hockey stop in PMTS without actively steering the skiis. To do a hockey stop, the skis are pivotted. There is unweighting going on that assists the passive rotation of the skis to the position perpendicular to the direction of travel.

Harald has mentioned that rotation does happen, it's just not active rotation. I thought unweighting may be similar, but retraction can be an active and so not solely a passive occurence. One would combine active unweighting with passive rotation.

Regardless, the key is maintaining alignment above the skiis. Unweighting will not alter that critical element.

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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:38 pm

milesb worte:
Piggy, I'd say that what's required of every good PMTS turn is controlling the turn through tipping of the free foot. What you described is what's required of every PMTS pure carved turn.


I will rephrase what I wrote: in proper turn the skis do not change direction during turn transition.
I agree with your comment that some turns where stance ski remains quite flat qualify as PMTS turns, but I would not call turns where edges are used pure carved. You can skid quite a bit with early edge engagement.

Jclayton: your examples show movemements where weight is transferred from one ski to the other. I am talking about PMTS turns in which weight reductions happens on BOTH skis at the same time (I will not say un-weighting as this apparently implies a bag of associations with pivoting or rotational ?recoiling?).

BigE, milesb, jclayton:
Numerous places, especially in ACBES book 2 talk about flexing both legs and pulling both knees up to chest. This movement both lowers CM and reduces weight on BOTH skis.

I would love to see Haralds comments on how the weight reduction plays in this, but here is what I think:
1). Obviously helps in powder to be able to switch your edges when you afloat. These movement help skis to surface.
2). Lowering CM has tremendous benefits and probably is the main goal of the above movements. Lowering CM cannot happen without weight reduction on BOTH skis. So you got to have it if you want benefits of lowering CM.
3). I feel in my experiments that flexing the knees and lowering CM creates more pronounced engagement. I feel my stance leg engaging more vividly when I do that.
4) It can generate cool feeling of weightlessness, even some air in turn transition. It lets you relax and float.

I strongly believe that the purpose of these movements is not to generate favorable conditions for pivot, nor to recoil of the ?passive? rotation.
BigE, I think this is a good question and hope Harald will address it.

I think I have repeated myself couple of times throughout these post, but I hope I make myslelf clear. There are movements in PMTS which result in weight reduction on BOTH skis.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:56 am

In these posts there are many references to 'pivot'. I am not aware of any ski instruction system that teaches pivoting. Pivoting is something that self taught skiers develop as a habit and that TTS uses as an exercize for edge control, as in pivot slips. In general skiing, pivoting is used to make a hockey stop in-line, that is not turning at all.

.....Ott
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Postby BigE » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:37 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:In these posts there are many references to 'pivot'. I am not aware of any ski instruction system that teaches pivoting. Pivoting is something that self taught skiers develop as a habit and that TTS uses as an exercize for edge control, as in pivot slips. In general skiing, pivoting is used to make a hockey stop in-line, that is not turning at all.

.....Ott


The CSIA manual calls rotation of the femurs that changes the direction of the skis pivotting. From the manual:

Pivoting
Pivoting is the ability to utilize the legs and feet to help guide the skis in a specific direction. Whether the turns are carved or skidded, the lower body leads the turning effort.

Rotation is reserved for antics of the upper body. Also from the manual:

Pivoting and rotation
Turning the hips or the upper body before the legs at any part of the turn is called rotation. At the top of the arc (phase 2) this could be caused by a rushed weight transfer (timing and pressure control) or an imbalance from phase 1. Through the bottom of the arc (phase 3 into 1) it may be
caused by poor steering mechanics or a loss of control of angular momentum.

The manual is available here, without pictures:

http://www.snowproab.com/pdfs/chapter_1to5_manual.pdf

Do a search for "rotation" or "pivot" and you'll be illuminated.

FYI: The "weight" transfer section sounds exactly like something Bob Barnes would say.

Enjoy!
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Postby milesb » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:34 pm

I guess pivot was a bad word to use! But that's what skis do when starting a turn unless the edges are engaged right away. 97% of short turns have at least some degree of skis pivoting at initiation. Maybe redirection is better? In any event, PMTS allows the skis to pivot (redirect) into the fall line through unwinding from an anticipated position, and/or delayed engagement of the edges. As opposed to actively pivoting (redirecting) them with muscular effort.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:19 am

>>>>Pivoting
Pivoting is the ability to utilize the legs and feet to help guide the skis in a specific direction. Whether the turns are carved or skidded, the lower body leads the turning effort.<<<<

I enjoyed reading the Canadian manual, (especially the warning on sexual relationships between students and instructors <grin>)

The pivoting described is what we call steering, the purposefull deflection of the skis or guiding of a ski in a turn.

The pivoting I referred to, which is seen as a negative move during turn initiation by many, is the rotational move around the axis of the legs by the skis while unweighted, used by low skilled and fearfull skiers to quickly point the skis in a new direction after finishing a turn.

That said, pivoting skills are essential for an advanced skier, just not used as described in the previous paragraph. Nothign will show up poor edge control more than doing pivot slips.

What prompted me to leave that post on pivoting was the comment, I think by miles, that uweighting is done to allow pivoting at turn initiation. While that surely can be done, the point of unweighting really is allow edge change, weight change and lead change simultaniously, which can include pivoting or not.

.....Ott :)
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Postby BigE » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:14 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:>>>>Pivoting
Pivoting is the ability to utilize the legs and feet to help guide the skis in a specific direction. Whether the turns are carved or skidded, the lower body leads the turning effort.<<<<

The pivoting described is what we call steering, the purposefull deflection of the skis or guiding of a ski in a turn.

The pivoting I referred to, which is seen as a negative move during turn initiation by many, is the rotational move around the axis of the legs by the skis while unweighted, used by low skilled and fearfull skiers to quickly point the skis in a new direction after finishing a turn.

That said, pivoting skills are essential for an advanced skier, just not used as described in the previous paragraph. Nothign will show up poor edge control more than doing pivot slips.

What prompted me to leave that post on pivoting was the comment, I think by miles, that uweighting is done to allow pivoting at turn initiation. While that surely can be done, the point of unweighting really is allow edge change, weight change and lead change simultaniously, which can include pivoting or not.

.....Ott :)


I follow.

On the following page is a video clip called "ski lesson -- turning". It's got both high and low bandwidth versions. There is sound included.

What is of interest is that he shows what pivotting is on several occaisions, and tells you not to do exactly that. The point of this post is that the pivot he shows is clearly wrong, yet he is neither a PMTS or PSIA skier. And I hope that PMTS folks are not thinking that PMTS is so advanced because the example pivot is not taught. I can't imagine the pivots he highlights as not to be done would being taught anywhere.

http://www.skibig3.com/gallery/videos.html
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Unweighting vs Flexion

Postby John Mason » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:59 pm

The downhill ski is flexed to help the release. Skis stay in contact with the snow.

This is the opposite of "pop", or standing at transition. Many of the coaches at the camp I was at were on this theme. Flex at transition not to unweight, but so that the up down movement of the body is minimized and because a flexed leg can tip more. The pressure is the least on the skis at this transition point as the body moves over the skis. This is "unweighting", but not in the sense to make something easier, but just because this is the "float" phase of the turn.

The skiers at this camp were most flexed at transition.

When I think of the classic unweighting move or as I paraphrase what most people have told me, it was kind of a crouch down then leap up at transition so the skis could be pivoted to the new turn. This is different from Ott's description and Ott has lived this move so I would take Ott's description. (or I could just pop in BB's dictionary and see what the accepted definition of it is).
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Interesting video BigE

Postby John Mason » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:10 pm

Perry pops up just before each transition. Even though he is demonstrating "aging" your turn, he seems to actually be not carving the top of the turns at all because if this unweight/pivot/tail washout initiation.

I'm just pointing out differences. People can ski with unweight/pivots. My son skis that way and has a blast. It's just not an example of anything that PMTS teaches.

This video does illustrate what pops into my mind when I hear the term unweighting.

The phrase many of the instructors used at camp this week was movements like this "disconnect" you from the snow.
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Postby Rusty Guy » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:50 pm

milesb wrote:I guess pivot was a bad word to use! But that's what skis do when starting a turn unless the edges are engaged right away. 97% of short turns have at least some degree of skis pivoting at initiation. Maybe redirection is better? In any event, PMTS allows the skis to pivot (redirect) into the fall line through unwinding from an anticipated position, and/or delayed engagement of the edges. As opposed to actively pivoting (redirecting) them with muscular effort.


Good post!

It depends upon where the pivot point is. I'm particularly pleased to see you say what you did about short turns. Redirection is fine.

Bob Barnes gave my daughter a lesson today and I witnessed something fairly amazing. I will be the first to admit I would not have believed it. Let me back up for a minute. Last week Bob and I spent a couple days skiing with Tony Sears. I think the guy is technically the best skier that I have ever seen. He is a former Europa Cup racer. Harald knows him. At least Harald gave him a pair of carvers last year to try. Tony liked them.

Tony talked about the importance of inside leg steering and how prevelant it is among current racers. He debunked the idea that anyone on the courses today can make edge to edge turns. There is exceedingly active redirection according to Tony. I don't expect anyone here to buy into that because you didn't hear it from Herr Harb. In any case, believe it if you care to. We began working on short turns and started with Spiess turns. I had not done these for years.

Today Bob had my kid begin the day by doing these. They are tough, I always feel uncordinated doing them, and ten or so at altitude wind me. This drill resulted in my kid making short turns that were far better than any she has done previously.

Why? I can only guess a couple of things. Tony talked about current racers being "locked in the ankle" Spiess turns will certainly create movement. They force you to find the center of the ski, done well they create a very quiet upper body, a great pole swing/plant, and wonderful timing. For those of us with a few pounds to shed I would also suggest fifty a day will help.

They involve active redirection, however the ancillary benefits were clearly evident in my kids ability to make short turns.

Here is what I don't understand about PMTSers. Miles, you mention unwinding from an anticipatory position. Are you suggesting the muscles in your body just shut down and don't involve themselves in this process?

Let's look at it from another perspective. I guess I find it almost comical to hear you say "PMTS allows the skis to pivot (redirect) into the fall line. What is so freakin taboo about helping that to happen, speeding up the process, actively engaging muscles to help that process. Can you see how the terms you use to couch what PMTS "allows" seem a bit bizarre.

Get freaky one of these days in bumps miles and turn em! I swear we won't tell Harald.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:10 pm

BigE, I think what I saw in that video is him demonstrating how one could lose the edges and the resulting unintentional pivoting and sideways slide. Intentional pivoting comes into play when skiing a steep and narrow place where the skis have to come around NOW and where carving or doing a round turn of any kind would catapult you into the rocks or trees.

John, I have no objection to the little pop at turn initiation, I do it all the time especially when rebounding, it simply is easier for me. Also, though I see his edges engaging at the top of the turn, carving before the fall line can be jerky, I'd rather ease into the turn.

But to each his own.

As for unweighting, you can pivot, change edges, weight and lead, or not. Unweighting is simply there to allow you to do something with your skis with less effort and snow resistance, if you are so inclined.

....Ott
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Two things and a hijack

Postby John Mason » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:59 pm

Rusty Guy wrote:Tony talked about the importance of inside leg steering and how prevelant it is among current racers. He debunked the idea that anyone on the courses today can make edge to edge turns. There is exceedingly active redirection according to Tony. I don't expect anyone here to buy into that because you didn't hear it from Herr Harb.


Inside leg steering to create a pivot action in the outside leg certianly creates rotation. Racers may use it, I wouldn't know. "Herr Harb" was hanging with the US ski team and their coaches often at the camp as they were practicing before the runs opened and so many of them know Harald. He would have direct knowledge about this and I hope he comments. I do know that Roger Taggert from the NW PSIA tech team and coach of the SARS racing program and his staff actively coached against inside leg steering as it bleds off speed. Anyone diverging their tips were coached to change their line so they could carve it top to bottom. That's not saying a racer wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't ever active steer, just what represents the norm.

Interestingly, on carvers you can't do this. Even if you lift your inside carver off the ground (which you would have to do to do this in carvers), the pivot force on the outside carver would be resisted and disrupt balance just because, unlike skis, the carvers resist pivoting and twisting.

What's missing in this disussion appears to be a lack of understanding of how the prior turn can blend into the new turn with both remaining carved. Most skiers don't and can't do this. Many of the skiers at this camp I was just at do this regullarly. They look quite different coming down the hill from most skiers.

Rather one wants to do this or not in their own skiing is certainly up to ones preference.

Rusty Guy wrote: Let's look at it from another perspective. I guess I find it almost comical to hear you say "PMTS allows the skis to pivot (redirect) into the fall line.


I'm not sure what MilesB was referring to, but the beginner PMTS turn that is taught is the two footed release and it uses "unwinding" to start the turn and only the bottom of the turn is carved. Basically the student simply faces down the hill with their skis in a traverse. They let their skis go flat and their skis will seek the fall line. Then they tip their inside ski to it's LTE to carve the bottom of the turn. This is an easy turn to make and good for non-beginners or anyone for keeping it real narrow and brushing off speed. But, this has nothing to do with the high end and much more skilled turn that carves the top of the turn. That's a different kind of PMTS turn that does not rely on any rotational inputs. The edge changes occur while the skis are in a straight line in this high end PMTS turn.

Rusty - those Fischer boots sound fascinating. I asked rehtorically when I was first getting into skiing why the bindings were linear since if they were offset at an angle the knees would work right for flexion. I guess Fischer does this in their boot shell. I'm intrigued. Makes a lot of logical sense.

I also note in your history of posts that you have a reverse ramp angle in your setup. IE toes higher than your heel. That's not the norm for most people, but it all varies by person. In my own case I'm going to start playing with the total angle "delta" + "ramp" to get my fore aft balance going better. I have quite a few pairs of skis and ranked them while at camp to Jay as to which ones I find easier to ski on in terms of fore/aft balance. Then I figured I could measure them and see if my subjective fore aft ranking matched any trend in measured delta angle of the skis.

Indeed it did. My preference or ease of fore/aft balance followed exactly the delta angle differences in these skis. Looks like I'll be experimenting going a tad more with it. SI had an interesting post about this and measured the weight people had heel vs toe with and without a heel lift and found 50% got better distribution and 50% got worse. Just shows that this whole ramp/delta angle vs fore/aft balance is a very individual thing and must be played with. Paul Kilby from Vail at the camp talked about his experience with this as well and his pair of boots has ramp angle adjustment built into the boot. He was quite amazed at how much a little change in the boot changed how he skied.

But I'm hijacking BigE's thread a bit here.
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Postby BigE » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:25 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:BigE, I think what I saw in that video is him demonstrating how one could lose the edges and the resulting unintentional pivoting and sideways slide. Intentional pivoting comes into play when skiing a steep and narrow place where the skis have to come around NOW and where carving or doing a round turn of any kind would catapult you into the rocks or trees.

John, I have no objection to the little pop at turn initiation, I do it all the time especially when rebounding, it simply is easier for me. Also, though I see his edges engaging at the top of the turn, carving before the fall line can be jerky, I'd rather ease into the turn.

But to each his own.

As for unweighting, you can pivot, change edges, weight and lead, or not. Unweighting is simply there to allow you to do something with your skis with less effort and snow resistance, if you are so inclined.

....Ott


Hmmm, I'm away from a machine that will play that clip, so I can't give you the quote, but he does say something like 'many people will pivot the skis too quickly,and the edges will slide.' And then he pivots the feet too quickly.

He then drives that home later by saying that the skis will still go right to turn left. In the remainder of his turns, his initiation is steered.

But the point was just to show the three or so examples of gross overpivotting, vs a more reasonable amount.

The question now is, how do you tell if that pivotting was passive or active?
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Passive or Active

Postby John Mason » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:30 am

Not sure it matters a whole lot. In PMTS in the two footed release it's passive as the body unwides. The skis are not being pushed to the side or actively pivoted. All three movements skid the top of a turn but in a different manner.

In the higher end pure carve turn none of these movements occur.

Rusty - when we worked on lateral tipping with Roger Cane (Arcmeister on Epic) there was no pointing in. He held each of our ski tips firmly to the ground and had us latterally tip the inside leg to it's LTE and had us work to feel the top of our feet push against the top of the boot. This mental cue created much more tipping power than just tipping to the LTE. Lots of us were creating lots of twisting of our skis torsionally while Roger held the ski tip flat to the ground. Now when we all did it again without him holding on the the ski tip, no ones ski diverged inward. This was all pure lateral tipping.

Turns at transition created by this type of tipping combined with flexion of the old stance leg as neutral was approached are a smoothly connected set of tracks with no abrubt change in direction. There is no pivot point in the tracks.

You often state that lateral tipping in your own case while sitting in a chair is always accompianied with pointing in. There isn't when I sit in a chair and try it. But everyones foot mechanics are different.
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Postby milesb » Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:42 pm

Rusty, some here say that what's wrong with "helping it along" is that doing so disrupts the chain of motion that tipping the free ski sets up. And they give both examples of scientific and empirical evidence.
I'm not sure about the muscles shutting down thing you mentioned. It doesn't feel that way, it feels more like a spring unwinding in a controlled way (like with a shock absorber?), but I don't know exactly what happens.
Funny that you should mention bumps, the only time I consistently steer the skis is when I'm doing a fast zipperline on my fat skis, or doing the Pierre line on them. (Heh, I guess that would be most of the time!) . It seems like either attempting to carve the tops of the turn or just letting the skis seek the fall line works for most other bump situations. But in any event, I do steer the skis in the bumps when I feel I need to. I don't consider most of those times mistakes, either. I'd like to think that everyone does this (ego :wink: ), but who knows?
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