Which Experts!

PMTS Forum

Which Experts!

Postby Intermediately challenged » Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:03 am

I have a new appreciation of skiing movements since I read and watched Harald Harb?s books and videos. Now the skiers I used to think were good don?t look so good. I watch ski instructors, (they wear uniforms so they?re easy to spot) and they now seem to fall into the intermediate movement ability level. (Guess Harald?s skier ratings are true)

My question is, why do ski instructors constantly talk about widening someone?s stance and twisting or steering the skis, when most of the skiers on the slopes are over doing those movements? Do they not get it? Those over steering and skidding results have to be coming from lessons skiers take.

I read on Epic constantly that steering is the most important movement. Do they mean for beginners? I don?t want to be a beginner for the rest of my life. I tried the Phantom Move without any steering and it worked great. I must be doing it wrong because when I try to steer I always had a wedge beginning and sloppy finish to my turns. Is there a difference between the knowledge of the experts here compared to the other forum? I get very confused when I try to use their advice.
Intermediately challenged
 

Rotation - ski instruction article

Postby John Mason » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:17 am

http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages ... ion05.html

You might find this a helpful perspective

You have hit the nail on the head. Do we turn our skis, or do our skis turn us? What is the best way to get the skis to turn us?

As MilesB pointed out if you are in a carve then use active leg steering, since the skis are in a carve you'll make your knees point in by doing this which results in a weak knee position. Others state that this is a fine way to tighten the radius of a turn, but MilesB pointed out the weakness of this method.

The phantom move itself can tighten a turn leaving the body in great skeletal position.

No, PMTS is not what most are talking about on Epic. Epic talks mostly about the "blended" model where you mix pressure/rotation/edging. This appears to me to be just a rehash of what was taught for years. I mean, in edging they often talk about pointing and tipping which also is different than how edging is done in PMTS. I don't see a lot of commonality.

There are PMTS people and coaches on Epic. This makes it all the more interesting as they approaches are radically different. The PMTS naysayers on Epic will often repeat the myths like it won't work for a busload of beginners, or it's not a flexible system as who wants to carve in all situations (PMTS is about carving for sure, but its also about the best way to handle your skis which includes lots more effects then just carving. An PMTS coach at Epic is Eski and he has a book on All Mountain Skiing where the whole approach is built on what is taught in PMTS as the Super Phantom turn.)

Welcome to the forum.
John Mason
 
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Good Question

Postby John Mason » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:22 am

Intermediately challenged wrote: Is there a difference between the knowledge of the experts here compared to the other forum? I get very confused when I try to use their advice.


HH is from a world cup background. Most ski instructors are not. Harald took a scientific approach with a group of people to research and create the PMTS system. It's a whole different ball game.

On the widen the stance thingy, I was recently at a store with a ski deck with our ski club and they had a psia III cert trying to get everyone that took a turn on the deck to widen their stance. He explained this was the big deal at the acadamy meeting for instructors. He explained it was what the racers do. He demonstrated this on the deck and we are talking at least shoulder width apart. I think this is part of the problem of this new "kick" in stance. They think they are emulating race technique.

Most of the skiers that implement this stance do not appear to ski with dynamic balance anymore and their CM is stuck between their skis - which is totally oppisite of what a racer does.
John Mason
 
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Postby Pierre » Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:26 pm

IC and John M I can fully understand the confusion. First off, understand that Steering means many different things to many different skiers. That is part of the big tent problem at PSIA. The big tent theory is not a good approach in the lower levels of ski instruction. Some instructors mean it to be twisting the outside ski or twisting both skis. I don't believe you have to talk about steering in ski instruction.

What I call steering is the combined affect of a skiers intention with passive rotational forces produced by PMTS movement patterns. To put it simple, Steering to me just means the skis go where the skier intended.

On wide stances. PMTS explores the realms of dynamic balance. Dynamic balance is the mode of operations in narrow stances. By narrow, I do not mean boot locked. In feet apart wide stances, the mode of operations is primarily stability and not dynamic balance. The natural tendency when stability is the mode of operations is for all skiers to become static, or park and ride. That includes wedge stances.

The problem comes in when we try to take what world class ski racers are doing and bring it down to the instruction level. A world class racer does what is necessary to win and is not trying to ski for us as the model for perfect ski movement. With high skill and athletic ability, they can operate in a dynamic fashion whether they are relying on stability or dynamic balance and they can move in ways that you and I don't have the athleticism to do. Using both dynamic balance and stability is fantastic but it requires skill well above what most recreational skiers ski can do and that includes most instructors.

When operating in a wide stable position, students never learn to move in dynamic fashion. Only when we narrow the stances up do we allow students to explore the movements that are necessary to develop dynamic skiing. Once dynamic movement patterns are fully developed, a good dynamic skier can then explore operations in a wide stance and still use their dynamic movements. Most never get there.

PSIA's real problem is having to much information available all the time to dissect and disseminate that information properly. That is what you see over at Epic. PSIA really has no system, they have a loose set of directions called stepping stones. PSIA is fantastic for instructors who are at the very highest levels of understanding but, in my opinion, its a disaster for instructors at the lower levels and those students taught by those instructors. Many level III's do not posses the levels of understanding necessary to really benefit from the PSIA approach as well. PMTS runs circles around PSIA at those levels. Since most lessons taken are at those lower levels and taught by instructors at lower levels, HH has good ground to stand on. It has taken me a long time and I had to rise to a very high level of understanding before I was able to appreciate the difference between PSIA and PMTS. Yes you're fanaticism as students did not go unoticed or was you're enthusiasm written off by me.
Pierre
 
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Study develops understanding

Postby Harald » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:12 am

I appreciate the understanding demonstrated and described here. It is definitely gratifying to see that skiers (instructors) are figuring out why PMTS exists and that it is different and has different benefits to skiers than the TTS that have been around for decades.

When one is skiing even at lower levels, balance is a true necessity; I don?t mean stability, which is the TTS version of balance (two footed wide stance wedge) I mean dynamic balance. We (PMTS) teach skiers to balance right from the first lesson because it is indisputable that effective modern skiing transitions, not only depend on dynamic balance, but can be applied to all levels of skiing and skiers. We do it all the time with all levels.


PMTS teaches the natural balance of the body over the edges while tipping on to the edges and off the edges. This is done while the skis are on the same track. We teach this static (tipping on and off through flat), and when moving in a gentle progression, straight run and traverse.

During turn transition skis are not pushed, pivoted or otherwise redirected, especially not with upper body forces. This to some is utopian, but we strive for quality movements in PMTS and if skiers falls short, they are still on the right track and better served than the movements taught through TTS that dead end skiing progress.

Those that have not studied or gone through PMTS training are quick to criticize it because they think there are limitations. They only make those assumptions and statements because they are not educated. What most don?t realize is that there are no limitations in PMTS.

We build turns from the bottom up and from the top down with releases that flatten the skis and teach slipping. However, we never encourage leg steering to accomplish these movements. A skier will learn lateral foot and ankle movements with our system and appropriate passive leg following movements, which do not disrupt ski direction or subtle edge angles created through tipping. Other approaches and systems utilize gross motor muscles of the thigh that over power any edge angles achieved by ankles and feet especially at lower levels of skiing.

Teaching steering to redirect the skis to beginners makes them dependant on twisting, and then upper body assistance to twisting, as leg rotary movements don?t engage the skis until late in the falline, bracing against the forces. (Wedge turn and wedge Christie movements are dependant on leg steering) Leg and upper body movements that develop out of that system (as Intermediately Challenged describes so well) over power and eliminate foot and ankle edging and tipping movements. In contrast, PMTS develops edging and balancing skills from the beginning that are reliable. In other systems the converse is apparent, leg steering over rides and over powers foot and ankle tipping movements, especially when there is no or little proper foot edging with balance applied anywhere in TTS progressions.

I know there will be those that want to argue that done right, leg steering is effective, but I don?t see the results. I have to agree with Intermediately Challenged the skiers on the slopes demonstrate uncontrolled skidding. PMTS skiers don?t make those movements.
Harald
 


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