CA and CB does it come from the hip or the upper body?

[federico]

So when coaches insist on exercises to dismantle CA the first (and probably not the only)
unwanted side effect is that you have no more enough CB?

I'm not having good time here ,
Ciao,
Federico

[h.harb]

To some extent they go together. It's difficult to keep one without the other. If you have great feet and can tip them, you can hold and edge in the upper part of the arc without much CB, but when you get to the loaded part of the turn, you need it and everyone uses it, even Bode.

[kirtland]

Harald,
Thanks for:

It is posted above by Max501 and in my text: http://harbskisystems.com/blogs/tech-bl ... rbalancing

I already had that one. I thought you were referring to a post in the forum that might have related to the relationship of CA to CB.
I practice that movement, although it not very perceptible in my skiing.

My lateral flexibility to CB is limited and is what I focus on stretching. For me, the stretch that seems most effective to isolate the muscles, is to do the stationary down hill tipping exercises. Although I think I overdid it the other day, and I'm currently having muscle spasms in those muscles.

When I ski, although, I feel all kinds of pinching and stretching going on. When I look at video none of that is apparent. I am inclined much more than I think I am. To compensate, my movement of choice is to CA more to bend out over my outside ski. But I think go beyond an appropriate amount of Counter Acting and Counter Rotate, which leads to excessive lead change or scissoring and the tail of the ski not holding. So I'm trying to discover how much counteracting is enough and how much is too much. I have experimented with your Rope Meter idea and it is helpful. I can pull my hips into counter, while at the same time pulling back with my hips, to not go too far.
When I was at the Mt Hood camp last June, Diana made the observation that I Scissored too much, but I did not get any feed back that dealt with it specifically. We did work on foot pullback, but even with the foot pulled back, to where just the tip of the ski is on the ground, I still have a lot of lead change. I have been working on resisting counteracting and driving my hip and foot through the turn. Which feels like the ski holds much better on hard snow. This seems contrary to what you have been teaching, at what point is there too much Counteracting? Any thoughts? Beside, post video.
Kirt

[Max_501]

I already had that one. I thought you were referring to a post in the forum that might have related to the relationship of CA to CB.

How about this post:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=662#p7029

[doc]

This topic has come up in various guises many times since I started eavesdropping this forum about three years ago, and it is not surprising, as CA and CB are critical elements - essentials - of PMTS and obviously give a lot of people trouble. The problems encountered seem to fall into two different categories:

1) The mechanics of the movements themselves, and their integration into one's skiing to the point where they no longer require conscious effort to perform correctly in every turn. It is apparent that HH has encountered this a lot among those who are just beginning the PMTS journey, as it probably is counterintuitive for many. I think that most who have been with PMTS for any length of time have this well in hand, and will not dwell on it further here.

2) The increasing degrees to which CA and CB have to be performed when entering the realm of higher-level skiing. I'm obviously not alone among those who have been surprised and chagrinned to see that what I felt was a lot of CA and CB was actually a little.......and merely seeing that more is needed, and adding it, may not work that easily for everyone. The key for me, at least (and again I don't think I am alone here), is flexability.....particularly in the hips (No question that the back has to be involved too, but agree with the concensus that it has to start at the hips and that no amount of compensatory movement in the back and shoulders can adequately substitute for a lack of hip flexability. I can't think of another athletic activity where flexability in the hips is as critical to success as it is in skiing, particularly at higher levels. Unless things have changed a lot since I was in med school (light years ago, granted), the limits of absolute hip flexability vary with the individual, may differ from one side to the other, and are determined by the relative looseness or tightness of the joint capsules - the envelopes of tough unyielding gristle responsible for maintaining the integrity of the joint. But more important than the absolute range of motion is what could be termed the useful range of motion - what percentage of the absolute range can be accessed in the performance of an activity. If I could CA and CB on the slopes to the extent that I can on dry land, where it is possible to literally crank and contort myself (that's what it feels like) into static positions that may approach my absolute limits of flexability, I'd be a happy camper indeed. On-slope wprk on this has yielded some dividends, and work will continue, but I suspect that it may require more to get to where I would like to be. I would appreciate input from any who have faced similar problems, and successfully worked at an off-season dryland program to enhance useful range of motion in the hips (note: a personal trainer is not in the budget).

A final and probably not original observation: Day after day I see PSIA instructors demonstrating rotation and inclination while teaching, and later see the same instructors freeskiing without a trace of either. Why? Both category 1 and category 2 above are hard. Effective CA and CB probably take more time and effort to really get right than any of the other essentials (my opinion, anyway). Inclining and rotating are easy, and the student gets instant rewards - and they do "work" to the extent of reaching the goals that most students seem satisfied with.

[h.harb]

To answer the original question of this thread, yes, it's both. The spine and lower back, with the higher hip movement, create perfect CB.

Believe it or not, you can regulate this by moving your inside hand up or down especially for more CB at the end of an arc.
This is a steep slope, you can see this by how close the inside shin bone and knee are to the snow. The pelvis is fairly level and the inside hand and arm are in a strong position. As the skis continue to arc, I keep my inside hand and arm from moving back. This assures that my counter acting is held to the important finish, end of the turn. It assures a release that can be made by flattening the skis and letting the legs cross.

This photo is an interesting angle, taken from above.

[Matt]

One things that was important for me was to learn how to lift the inner hip joint. I practiced this on dry land, but on snow it did not work. The reason was that on dry land I was using the side core muscles to lift the joint, however when skiing this does not work because then the side core muscles on the other side are used for CB (lower back bending). Learning to lift the hip without the side core was key for me.

[kirtland]

Max501,
Thanks I had this one also.

How about this post:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=662#p7029

I had participated in that discussion.

I am beginning to realize that I am looking for an answer that I'm only going to find out on my own. That the amount of counteraction one needs varies a lot from skier to skier and has to do as much with alignment as anything.
I noticed today watching the World Cup GS the extreme differences between skiers. From Bode Miller who counters alot and, who incidentally had the fastest second run, by .43


and Didier Cuche who stays very square to his skis


And Carlo Janka also


I was rereading the Alignment section in ACBAES 1 This evening and ran across this Statement about Engaging for Knock kneed Skiers

Harald Harb States "The knee of the stance leg is driven into the slope as hard as possible to try to achieve edge grip. The body's reaction to this movement creates oversteering of the skis. Oversteering creates instability and becomes dangerous with speed and on difficult terrain. the ski tail feels loose and slippery, and it plows the snow until it;s sideways across the hill. The upper body follows the skis and sometimes faces back up the hill. Some skiers use strong "counter"-turning the pelvis in the opposite direction to the turn- to prevent overturning the femur of the stance leg" pg 196

I can relate to this. Although I consider myself bowlegged, because standing up, my legs bow out and I am supinated, standing on the outside edges of my feet, but when I ski, I end up knock kneed trying to engage the inside edge of my foot and ski. So although I have better alignment now, I think it is a default move from 48 years of skiing that way. So that must be why, with the corrected alignment, working at countering less, feels much more stable and balanced to me now.
Harald, do you think this is close to right?
Kirt

[MonsterMan]

From Bode Miller who counters alot and, who incidentally had the fastest second run, by .43
Image

and Didier Cuche who stays very square to his skis

They both seem to have great counter acting to me. What visual que are you using to gauge counter acting?

[kirtland]

I'm looking at the degree to which the Hip is countered in relationship to the skis,and at their feet,(look at Carlo's foot, it is actually leading the inside foot), at the point in the turn where the most forces are generated, right under the gate, just prior to the release. Which is where I captured the Photos. Yes there is counter in all of their skiing. But there is a significant, difference in degrees. And it appears to me that Bodie embraces the counter and let's it happen. And that Carlo and Dider resist it and try to minimize it. If you watch them in this race (Yesterdays GS) in slow motion, I think, you'll see how much quicker Carlo and Didier come back to square, when they do have significant counter. To me it looks like their intention is different.
Here is an even more extreme example of Lindsey Vonn's Counter which illustrates, what Harald was describing in the quote I used about alignment. In Lindseys case here, she is even countering earlier, so you have to imagine how much more extreme it is when she passes under the gate.
Kirt

[h.harb]

You have to be very careful how you compare and use World Cup skiers in photos or video (one frame especially) for defining a use of counteracting based on their movements and positions, for your own needs. These are super athletes and what is needed and when it is used by them, for CA, is often totally different from the timing and edge application for and by recreational skiers.

Too many assumptions are made in the previous posts, without the experience and background knowledge of coaching at this level.


Without the insider information of a coach with experience of coaching racers at this level, it is difficult if not impossible, to be accurate about the assumptions made above. Having coached and taught both types of skiers, I have some experience in this realm, which allows me to select a photo or a relationship demonstrated for certain techniques, in a photo that maybe relevant to the recreational skier and when it is not.

The photos I post, select; and explanations I offer, using World Cup skiers here on this forum, are relevant to recreational and advanced skiers and racers. Many I see and look through, before I decide what to select and post are not applicable and not relevant to skiers. I pay close attention to this, so as not to create misinterpretations.

You have to remember, always, that these are super skiers, who have amazingly strong feet and ankles, and equipment set ups that a recreational skier can't begin to imagine.

Look at the mid body or core, on Cuche, can anyone tell me, (Except Monsterman of course) , that your mid section looks anything like Cuche's, and that mass is all muscle.

I admire the involvement of defining and comparing movements of world cup skiers to PMTS and to personal skiing improvement. There is lots to discover, also lots to learn,but also much misinterpretation that can evolve. I guess that's why I'm here.

Cuche never rotates, (well almost never), but he never seems to counteract as much as Vonn, Hirscher or Ligety. Some of the reasons are; Cuche is a speed skier. He never or hardly ever runs slalom. If you don't rotate and you have mid body section and core strength like Cuche, the counter acting from side to side in speed events is much more gradual and minimized. I rarely use speed events or speed skier photos to compare skiing techniques for recreational skiers; just because they don't apply to skiers.


Slalom skiing is the closest event to recreational skiing. Because of the turns, not the speed, even slalom speeds are way beyond the capabilities of recreational skiing. They are often as high as 40 to 45 mph. In slalom, because the turns are so close together and tight, the rotational forces the skiers create are greater for the skier to control. You have to CA faster, sooner and more, than in any speed event. This discussion and the differences between needs for CA in Speed events, by different athletes, can become highly in-depth and may not serve anyone's interest for their own skiing, for now, enough said.

The best way to continue this discussion; at least the part about Cuche and others that don't "seem" to use as much CA, is to post your video. Post it on the "MA Forum" and ask about how much or little CA you need for yourself, after we see the skiing, we can help with this. Cuche's needs for CA at 70mph maybe be a topic for another time, but it is not relevant for this discussion.

[Max_501]

These are super athletes and what is needed and when it is used by them, for CA, is often totally different from the timing and edge application for and by recreational skiers.

[h.harb]

I have met Cuche, he's a brick, about 5''7". His legs are stumps and his rear end is twice as wide as mine. And you can't get much flexibility out of that set up. But the man has great feet and ankles. If anyone remembers, Karl Schranz, that's the way he skied. And Schranz used leather up as high as his ankles. My hiking boots are taller.

[h.harb]

Bode's best GS runs in almost two years, but he still boned it in the last three gates, he had over a 1/2 second lead. Maybe he just needs to get older to realize that you can't go straight, where there are turns.

The winner really blasted the middle section where it was flatter and round, he skied into each gate, from above the arc with a "High C"; that's fast and you finish without a major mistake.

Transitions in modern GS, I mean modern, this has evolved in the last two years by a few skiers, now almost every AUSTRIAN GS SKIER IS USING RETRACTION IN GS.





IF YOU ARE EXTENDING IN GS, YOU CAN'T GET YOUR BODY READY FOR THE ANGLES NEEDED FOR THE NEXT ARC SOON ENOUGH.

[h.harb]

FED SAYS:

So when coaches insist on exercises to dismantle CA

You will have Blardone positions without his natural ability.
I would say, stay away from those coaches.