Defensive/Offensive -- Foundations of PMTS movement pedegogy

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Defensive/Offensive -- Foundations of PMTS movement pedegogy

Postby SkierSynergy » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:17 pm

BB/ Colorado wrote:I'll tell you a story. Earlier this season I was leading a clinic at Telluride for Full-Certified instructors training for "Trainer Accreditation," our "level 4" in the Rocky Mountains. We were standing on a blue run, watching skiers and throwing ideas around about their skiing and about what they might "need".
One of the skiers we watched was a woman showing all the moves of classic "pre-sidecut" skiing, at a high level of skill. Down--UP--and around, with a blocking pole plant, pushing off the platform of a strongly-set edge into each turn, throwing the tails out into a skid, sometimes both at once, sometimes one-at-a-time, well-balanced, but "back" because of the braking action of her skis. Her speed control came entirely from the braking/skidding effect of her edges scraping away speed, refusing to glide. The instructors were throwing out ideas of how her movements would need to change to make "better," more contemporary turns.

"She'll need to adjust her stance more forward." "Stop making that blocking pole plant and replace it with a smooth swing into the turn." "RELEASE her edges and guide her tips downhill into the turn, rather than pushing her tails out." "Stop rotating her upper body and become more active with her feet." "Move her center-of-mass into the turn, rather than pushing it uphill." "Balance over her skis, rather than bracing against them." And so on.... All these observations were correct.

"But it will be VERY hard to get her to make any of these changes," one of them said. "She's obviously been skiing like this for a long time, and her habits are deeply ingrained."

I told them that I could get her to make ALL the changes they recommended, instantly, with only two words.

We were standing at the end of a flatter section, above a slightly steeper roll, so I knew she would stop where we were. I told her that we were all instructors, and asked her if she would mind participating in a little experiement with us. She looked a little quizzical, but she agreed.

I was standing just below her on the hill, and I simply said, "come here," and waved her down the hill with me as I moved away quickly. What do you suppose she did, in response to my two words?

She moved her whole body down the hill toward me--"forward" over her feet. She stepped her skis, downhill ski first, down the hill toward me, which of course required her to release its edge ("left tip left to go left"). Her arms and poles swung smoothly toward me too, naturally, helping with the flow of motion in the direction she was trying to GO.

No blocking pole plant. No edgeset. No pushoff. No upper body rotation. Active feet and legs steering both skis into the new direction. Every movement she made moved in the direction she was going--toward me. No pushing of the tails. All the changes we thought she should make, she made.

And I had said absolutely NOTHING about technique--not a single word about HOW to do it. All I did was create a situation that put her in the offensive state of mind where she wanted to GO THAT WAY, rather than her usual intent to STOP GOING THIS WAY. Her movements followed suit.

Best regards.


I am not sure about the defensive/offensive distinction. Within PMTS, you use the same movements whether you have a defensive or offensive mindset. Therefore, for the most part, the distinction is meaningless within PMTS and I have no interest in it.

In relation to movement and ski performance, BB is generally giving consistent advice with the PSIA Technical Manual's advice. One of the specific descriptions given of the skier is that her "ski tips do not move forward through the arc of the turn" (p.43). BB's post offers a "trick" to address this issue and access the other issues identified in the manual's assessment.

Cool, if you believe in tricks.

I would have to say this is another conscious philosophical/ pedigogical basis of PMTS. It focuses on explicit movements, explicitly addressing the student's ability to examine, produce, analyze, and apply those movements. I think this is why so many recreational PMTSers have a more precise and complete understanding of the movements of skiing than many TTS instructors.

In addition, PMTS de-emphasizes concepts such non/un conscious skills or a focus on "how it feels."

Instead, analysis and instruction focuses on an objective external cue for the movement.

In fact the general pattern in movement instruction always incluudes:

1. Connection to the student's motivation
2. Identification of a SMIM (single most important movement) -- the movement within the primary or secondary movements of PMTS that would make the biggest change in the student's skiing
3. An external cue to anchor the movement instructions (e.g., Pick the free foot off the snow to half boot height, while keeping the LTE of the ski on the snow, tip the BTE of the ski off the snow. Pull your free foot back so that the arch of your free foot stays in line with the stance leg, etc. etc.

In this way the student knows why they are doing the movement, they know the EXACT movement they are trying to do (in general, a command like "get more forward" is useless as movement command. it doesn't provide the student with the specific movements that get you forward); and they have an objective criteria against which to measure their success.

How many times have you heard something like:

"If you are able to tip your your free foot BTE off the snow like we just did statically, then you'll have the speed control you are looking for.

What are you going to do?

Show me what you are going to do?

What will that help you do?

Does that person look like they have good speed control . . . what are they doing well?

Did you raise your BTE?

Ok. everyone did he raise his BTE?

You raised your BTE off the snow on the last four turns, but not the first four.

etc. etc."

Though it is explicitly a very analytical approach, I think this makes the individual student more informed and independent than focussing on muscle memory, letting it flow, tricks, etc. IMHO.
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Upper Body / Lower Body coordination

Postby John Mason » Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:45 pm

This "Go" factor, addressing the backseat, or lack of go factor for me started to get addressed through specific drills addressing proper use of the pole plant.

Up to that point in my PMTS progression, my upper body/lower body coordination was a mess as was my fore and aft balance. What I was doing with foot movements was being drowned out by upper body movements. If someone had said simply Go and follow someone else at that point of my skiing, I still would have thrown my shoulder in that direction. That's just me, I'm glad it worked for BB's student.

I like Jay's presentation of what is the primary movement that would make the biggest improvement. This is in line with the coaching philosophy I received in racquetball (by the nat champ in that sport for both singles and doubles so he new his stuff). Coaching is the removal of error. You focus on the largest error. As the student improves the errors are harder to spot.

Perhaps an "official" definition of Primary Movement would help people. Jay is alluding to that philosophy a bit in his post, but I think a basic explanation will help people. Skiing and instructing without a concept of primary movement is a basket case experience for the student. (having experienced both as a recent student, I can tell you from the student experience the difference is start).

Jay gave one example of the instructor command " get more forware". Things like, keep your CM moving down the hill. Just Flow. Even just Go. These all fall into the "resultent movement" category.

Jay, do you have some specific examples that will help people. Contrast of a TTS approach expressing a "resultant movement" as a goal vs the "primary movement" instruction that will actually help the student progress?
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Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:50 pm

Jay, what color PMTS instructor are you? I understand that the colors are correspondent to trail markings of green, blue and black, an interesting concept.

....Ott
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Just for reference

Postby John Mason » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:45 pm

Here is what the different levels of PMTS certification mean.

http://www.pmts.org/accstand.htm
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Postby Thor » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:15 am

SkierSynergy, isn't your pedagogical approach just out of PMTS instructor manual? I guess we all believe in it. What I would like to check is the difference between taking a lesson from HH or a PMTS average instructor. Knowing your subject is one thing, being able to pass your knowledge unto another person is a different beast... Remember a big difference. HH sees people who are already very motivated to ski, with usually state of the art equipment, etc... Some resorts see skiers who cannot even distinguish the tails from the tips, or kids with their parent's ski (1 feet too long), boots from a brother (2 sizes too big), dressed like they were about to cross Antartica and for which even paying $50 is a big deal. If you ask them what they would like to learn or to achieve by skiing, often they smile and do not know what to say... It would be interesting to see PMTS applied to these folks instead to people like us. I do not doubt PMTS, let me be clear, I doubt that many people have enough motivations in which case either PSIA or PMTS are not going to help much.
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It works that way too

Postby John Mason » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:17 am

I have personal and anectodal information on that, Thor.

The use of a drill progression with goals and external cues that are clear, concise, and understandable by a student makes teaching PMTS pretty straightforward to beginners - even scared unmotivated ones.

I've done it twice, which is not much at all. But I have heard lots of stories firsthand from people using it to teach beginners, including the busload of kids type, with all positive comments. Many of these PMTS experienced instructors were at the carver camp I went to.

Of the two personal examples I have had experience with one was a very timid, and not that athletic 8 year old. On the other extreme I taught his dad who skied the top of Abasin on his 2nd day. On his first day he was all over Nubs Nob after about 2 hours. But he had great neutral alignment and strong hockey background - so could relate to use of edges to turn.
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Postby Bluey » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:42 am

Just looked up "Pedagogy" in the google-searched online dictionary.......

Quote

1. The art or profession of teaching.
2. Preparatory training or instruction.

End Quote.



Fancy word.....
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Postby Thor » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:56 am

Bluey wrote:Just looked up "Pedagogy" in the google-searched online dictionary.......

Quote

1. The art or profession of teaching.
2. Preparatory training or instruction.

End Quote.



Fancy word.....


Bluey, you do not have Pedagogy down under? :P I have a friend from there who lives here and who has an excellent pedagogical approach that always works with me... he invites me to go for a "tiny". (did I spell it right?)
Thor
 

Postby Bluey » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:07 am

Thor,

My posting of the definition was an attempt to assist/make sure I ( and potentially other semi-illiterate posters) new what SS was referring to ....


My new self-imposed code of forum ethics now precludes me from responding to your query regarding our quaint Down Under colloqualisms as I would be in danger of assiting you to hijack this thread by going off-topic....... :D


Bluey.......

:D
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Postby Thor » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:13 am

You passed the test Bluey.. I give you a nice A. Nobody can detour you now.
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Re: Defensive/Offensive -- Foundations of PMTS movement pede

Postby BigE » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:38 am

Jay, I don't know where to begin trying to understand just where you are coming from here....

First you say:
skisynergy wrote:I am not sure about the defensive/offensive distinction. Within PMTS, you use the same movements whether you have a defensive or offensive mindset. Therefore, for the most part, the distinction is meaningless within PMTS and I have no interest in it.


Then later:

skisynergy wrote:In fact the general pattern in movement instruction always incluudes:

1. Connection to the student's motivation


You are either contradicting yourself, or you have a different use of the word motivation. FWIW, the rogue BB/colorado's post is clear: offensive is go this way, defensive is don't go this way. The rogue poster is suggesting that the subjects skiing style was filled with moves that would stop her from going downhill, and as she herself said, she had problems with speed control. Her focus: Speed control, not direction. The result: braking moves.

skisynergy wrote:BB's post offers a "trick" to address this issue and access the other issues identified in the manual's assessment.

Cool, if you believe in tricks.


The technique you ungraciously call a "trick" is called "guided discovery". In this case, the student is guided towards a realization that she can control descent without braking moves. The "trick" shows her that she can "come here" effectively, and should not fear descent of the terrain. You really don't believe in this type of instruction?

skisynergy wrote:In addition, PMTS de-emphasizes concepts such non/un conscious skills or a focus on "how it feels."

Instead, analysis and instruction focuses on an objective external cue for the movement.


Sorry Jay, I know of no instruction technique at all that relies solely on external cues. "How it feels" is proprioceptive learning. It is critical in any sport. Unless I am misunderstanding this passage, deemphasizing "how it feels" is exactly what you don't want. eg. deemphasizing the sensation of carving is not what you are after. You are after a series of movements that the student knows are successful precisely because the feeling of the carve is accentuated. Have I misunderstood something?

skisynergy wrote:1. Connection to the student's motivation
2. Identification of a SMIM (single most important movement) -- the movement within the primary or secondary movements of PMTS that would make the biggest change in the student's skiing
3. An external cue to anchor the movement instructions (e.g., Pick the free foot off the snow to half boot height, while keeping the LTE of the ski on the snow, tip the BTE of the ski off the snow. Pull your free foot back so that the arch of your free foot stays in line with the stance leg, etc. etc.

In this way the student knows why they are doing the movement, they know the EXACT movement they are trying to do (in general, a command like "get more forward" is useless as movement command. it doesn't provide the student with the specific movements that get you forward); and they have an objective criteria against which to measure their success.


I don't see any reason as to why they are doing the movement is being offered. Is it because it will "make the biggest change"? Under what conditions would the student perform the movement? Why?

I do agree that the command to "get more forward" is bogus, unless they know how and why. But your why appears to be because it's the way to do it. That quite a military approach.

skisynergy wrote:Though it is explicitly a very analytical approach, I think this makes the individual student more informed and independent than focussing on muscle memory, letting it flow, tricks, etc. IMHO.


Muscle memory is something that happens with repetition of any sort. Getting someone to "let it flow" signifies skills like coordination and general athletic requirements like functional tension, as well as awareness of external forces and how their actions moderate those forces. These issues are key in any athletic endeavour. What you call "tricks" are useful for a guided discovery of precisely these things. That is common in studet centered teaching.

IMO, the approach that you have suggested sounds much more like rote learning than learning through insight or understanding of the process. This recipe based approach to skiing is not student centered by any usual definition of the term. It is skills centered, and as the external objective observation is required, teacher centered.

It works for some folks, but not all. One reason for failure, is that once the teacher is removed, the student has no way of measuring success. Especially if "how it feels" is deemphasised. That is one reason why the teacher centric approach has been abandoned by groups like CSIA and PSIA. The teacher-centric instruction of mechanics is very very old school.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:45 am

>>>Thor quote<<<

>>>Some resorts see skiers who cannot even distinguish the tails from the tips, or kids with their parent's ski (1 feet too long), boots from a brother (2 sizes too big), dressed like they were about to cross Antartica and for which even paying $50 is a big deal. If you ask them what they would like to learn or to achieve by skiing, often they smile and do not know what to say... It would be interesting to see PMTS applied to these folks instead to people like us<<<

>>>John Mason quote<<<

>>>> I have personal and anectodal information on that, Thor.
The use of a drill progression with goals and external cues that are clear, concise, and understandable by a student makes teaching PMTS pretty straightforward to beginners - even scared unmotivated ones.
I've done it twice, which is not much at all.<<<<

I have posted before in the other forum how a skie area in Ohio works. Manamgement is after making money and they schedule many groups with incentives of low price tickets with lessons included. Here is what happens in a week:

All seven days schools are scheduled after 3 p.m. until about 8 p.m. and there are about 2000 to 3000 student hours given EACH DAY in that time frame in the two areas, Boston Mills/Brandywine owned by the same people andwhich have interchangable tickets.

Most school days there are once-a-year field trips by the school kids in the fifty cities within an hour's drive of the areas. The inner city kids from Cleveland and Akron and Youngstow are the worst. To them it is a big ball, they don't listen, use their poles as sabers, have food fights in the lodge, and when you want to stop them they tell you to "F**k off". The snobbish middle schooler rich kids from the suburb are not far behind, they don't have to do as you ask becuase their parents are rich.

Mondays are 'Home schooled kids days" , they get tickets/lessons at low price. They are not much trouble though.

Tuesdays some bus loads of 'special' kids come on an outing, some only slightly retarded others with heavy handicaps. On average they are a delight to teach, everybody should be as eager as them. preparing them for the races for the 'special olympics' can be a chore, though.

On Wednesday it's ladies day, a large group of housewives get their lessons and have a pizza party at the bar afterward. Lot's of fun to teach.

Thursdays is German Day. Schools in the area which have German classes learn the German skiing terms during the year and when the bus unloads them they are greeted by German speaking instructors and are only allowed to speak German during their stay, including lessons. It ony takes about a dozen German and Austrian instructors on the staff to teach them.

Friday mornings it's mostly field trips but by Friday afternoon a lot of early weekenders show up and want to take special lessons while the picking of instructors is still good.

We have a 'Pick-a-day' season ticket which allows the holder one day a week skiing and four lessons on any day they choose.

Saturday is race day. All day slalom runs, race clinics ski club races, etc.

Sundays it is unbelievable, it seems everybody wants a lesson.

And then there are "Tiny-Tots' lessons, 'Mogul Mites' kids lesson, mogul lessons and many other specialized lessons all week long.

Most evenings ski clubs in the area have their time, with beer and snacks in a private room afterward, they also get lessons.

And that is not counting the many walk-ins.

There are 400+ part time isntructors, most of whom only teach four days a week, though lots of retired people and college student who are taking a semester off to teach, are there every day all day long.

There are several million people within a couple of hours drive.

And all of those skiers have to be taken care of by the ski school, may it be PSIA, PMTS or independent, it is a hectic scene and I have many times threatened to go to the monkey house in the zoo to get some peace and quiet.

So, unless you can hack it in this situation and still give a good lesson you have no business being in an instructor in a ski school.

....Ott
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Postby Thor » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:41 pm

I can side with you Ott. There is a fundamental difference when you teach people who have the motivation and when, instead, you teach to groups like those you described. If you show them a PSIA or PMTS book, chances are they throw it at you. Although my experience never was so dramatic, it was pretty close. I am strongly convinced that you cannot teach to more than 6 people at the same time, unless it is in a clinic and they are all there with a huge desire to learn. Home schooled kids are the best to teach to, I agree. Once I thaught an entire family. Family was not rich, but everybody was extremely polite and well-behaved, capable of paying attention to what you were telling them. One of the kids by the end of the hours was even able to play with turn shape to control his speed.
PMTS or PSIA are not so useful if the students do not listen at all.
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My Cert level, comments, etc.

Postby SkierSynergy » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:01 pm

Ott,

I have answered your question about me in a seperate topic. Kind of a long winded answer to such a short question, but I hope others follow suite in the thread. I'll start it right away.

BigE, when I answered Rusty's comments, I said that there are some pedigogical foundations/tendencies in PMTS that I know could be raised for a useful critical assessment. Nice post. The issues you raise are exactly in the range of things I was thinking about. I think there is a real difference on these issues and I hope to respond as soon as I can.

Thor, I'll try to comment on the motivation issue also.
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Postby BigE » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:08 pm

Jay,

Thanks! You are right these are very important issues. I look forward to your assesment.

Cheers!
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