Case Study from SkierSynergy -- help my friend.

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Case Study from SkierSynergy -- help my friend.

Postby SkierSynergy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:56 pm

Just thought I'd keep things interesting. I will throw this out as an educational case study. This skier I know is similar to one presented in a popular publication ? though any similarity is completely coincidental (I know this skier personally). After a little while I will let you know the publication that coincidentally described my friend?s skiing and what it concluded/advised. For now, I?ll just present my friend?s skiing and ask for advice:

The skier:

1. Finds it difficult to control speed.

2. Skis with a tall stance (arms wide, legs tending toward narrow) and finds it difficult to balance -- also tends to get weight back

3. Skis remain flat and lack any edging at the beginning of the turn ? the turn is started with an up movement and whole body rotation, while pushing the skis out to the side.

4. Edge comes on radically at the end of the turn and the tails push out, swooshing snow out from under the skis.

Using your knowledge of movement analysis, answer the following:

A. Why does my friend ski like this?
B. What would you tell her to make the biggest improvements.

I think this is enough, but I know someone will probably bring up the following, so I'll also add:

C. If you really feel the need to ask for more information what would you ask?
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Postby BigE » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:59 pm

a) She's on skinny skis, about 200 cm long.
b) Buy new skiis.

:lol:
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Postby milesb » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:52 pm

a. she's scared
b. buy her a drink
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Re: Case Study from SkierSynergy -- help my friend.

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:34 pm

SkierSynergy wrote:Just thought I'd keep things interesting. I will throw this out as an educational case study. This skier I know is similar to one presented in a popular publication ? though any similarity is completely coincidental (I know this skier personally). After a little while I will let you know the publication that coincidentally described my friend?s skiing and what it concluded/advised. For now, I?ll just present my friend?s skiing and ask for advice:

The skier:

1. Finds it difficult to control speed.

2. Skis with a tall stance (arms wide, legs tending toward narrow) and finds it difficult to balance -- also tends to get weight back

3. Skis remain flat and lack any edging at the beginning of the turn ? the turn is started with an up movement and whole body rotation, while pushing the skis out to the side.

4. Edge comes on radically at the end of the turn and the tails push out, swooshing snow out from under the skis.

Using your knowledge of movement analysis, answer the following:

A. Why does my friend ski like this?
B. What would you tell her to make the biggest improvements.

I think this is enough, but I know someone will probably bring up the following, so I'll also add:

C. If you really feel the need to ask for more information what would you ask?


I guess the biggest hint is IF she articulates a need to control speed. I would begin to suspect she has been "over-terrained". I would seek an opportunity to find terrain where she learns to seek speed.....a feeling or sense of a ski turn as a time to go faster as opposed to a time to reduce speed.

It does amaze me the number of my clients who, when asked why they turn, state to slow down. I ask why isn't a turn merely a time to go to a desired spot on the hill and why does it have to be a time to slow down.

The weight back can obviously be caused by a variety of issues, however, in this case I would suggest it is related to anxiety.

The rotational issues/tail pushing/lack of early edging are so prevalent in intermediate skiers. I hate to use PSIA terms here, however, what you have described in "our" parlance is classic rotary pushoff. A platform is set with the outside ski. There is little or no release of the old outside ski and in an effort to get the turn finished quickly the old inside/new outside ski is pushed out with a great deal of upper body rotation. The end result is the heavy edge set you desribe.

In PMTS or PSIA parlance figure out a way to initiate movements in the foot to begin the turn, to initiate movement in the lowest portion of the kinetic chain. I often describe this as revving up movements from the base up and ratcheting down movements form the top down.

I think one of the wonderful chicken and egg situations is whether to try and eliminate less desirable movements or enhance desireable movements to fix an issue. I'm of the ilk to enhance the good in an effort to eliminate the bad.

Merely my $00.02
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Postby Rusty Guy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:37 pm

That was my $00.02 above....forgot to include username.

By the way......great topic!

P.S. Bob Barnes and I spent a wonderful day today skiing with our old friend SCSA. He is a delite to make turns with.
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skier is turning the skis rather than riding them

Postby John Mason » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:50 pm

(edited to point out, I was typing while Rusty was - this is not a reply to his reply which has many similarities to what I typed here. The "sounds typical" refers to the typical intermediate style skiing most prevelant on the slopes - not Rusty's post which wasn't here while I was typing this. - Rusty - I see you got the e-mail link for SCSA. Glad that worked out. Hope I have more hi-altitude wind then last time I skied with him when we hit it on the 22nd!)

Sounds typical.

Paraphrase on the ski style:

1. skier basically pivots and skids the skis in response to rapid acceleration

2. skier does not let the skis turn them, but instead turns the skis radically to skid and slow down in each turn

3. skier does not have a sense of the skis edges or how to use them

4. rotation coming from the top down - the kenetic chain is not being used (or being used in a backwards way)

5. skier is not using balance and crossover to ski but probably keeps CM within the skis laterally

======================

If I've paraphrased accurately, you got two big issues that will be a problem.

1. You've got to tear all of the above down and start over
2. These ingrained habits will take some time to undo

I would take this person and literally start them over. My goal for the first "start over lesson" would be to get them to feel a balanced carve at the bottom of a two footed release created by active tipping of the inside foot.

When you take a skier that turns their skis rather than letting the skis turn them and let them experience their skis carving and turning them, it's often a revelation. It gives them early success and opens a door to their thinking for a new way to ski.

To get to this two footed release initial goal I would:

1. work on foot work circles without the skis to just introduce inside foot LTE tipping being the first motion
2. then I'd show them how to side slip and hold an edge and how to side step up and down the hill, just to get them aware of their edges. I'd do this drill the PMTS way of tipping to LTE edges on the skis for the "brake" and the "accelerator" rather than the traditional way of just tipping both together and flatening them. This PMTS method helps reinforce the use of the LTE's.
3. then I'd have them point slightly down in a traverse and let them hold the edges they just learned in the side step drill and see how the skis will turn back uphill all on their own - for some skiers this is the very first moment perhaps in all of their skiing where the skis turn them instead of the other way around.
4. then i'd introduce the phantom move by having them do the same traverse slightly downhill, but tip the inside (upper ski) to it's little toe edge. There stance is probably coming in to this "rebuild" too wide. I would have them brush the inside ski over as they are tipping it to start to develop a more functional stance that will allow for use of balance.
5. then we'd very gradually just increase the amount of pointing down hill till they were getting a good carve at the bottom of a turn.

That'd be about a 1.5 hours right there and be a good start. Lesson goal would be to get this student to have some confidence that they can stop the acceleration by simply using the phantom move to get the skis to turn/carve them back uphill. This would give them a new way to ski down the hill in control using the base of the kenetic chain rather than the top.

Once they have this down both directions, we'd just use it to go down the hill to build muscle memory.

The next lesson I'd start building and working on the actual transition between turns.
Last edited by John Mason on Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hobbit » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:34 pm

SkierSynergy,
Let me try to see if I understand your desription. I believe you are looking for a short answer.

A. I think you are describing skiing with even weight distribution on both feet and no transfer of ballance.

B. The best exersize probably would be a classic phantom move half turns and linked turns to demonstrate proper ballance tranfer and distributing the wight to the outside ski during the turn.
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Postby Bluey » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:17 am

I'll be a mug and have a go at this.....but I take no credit for relying on MY "knowledge of movement analysis" as I'm not an Instructor, just a mug recreational skier, ....so I'll simply state what I think are some of the answers and then I'll give the page reference to HH's books as that's where I went to see if I could spot a likely answer......here goes.....

A. Why does my friend ski like this?
Answer....maybe she's a bit bow-legged ( Bk 1 Pgs 191, 192 & 193 ) and has been incorrectly taught to use leg steering & rotation ( Bk2 Pg 79).
I will follow the lead of the earlier posters and suggest maybe her skis are a bit too long and I will go further to suggest maybe they're a bit too stiff or possibly too wide and also maybe her ski boots are a bit too stiff for her weight and skiing style....has she been sold or has she constantly hired the wrong equipment

B. What would I tell her to make the biggest improvement.
Answer......Firstly, get an alignment session with a view to checking out her bowleggedness and possibly the need to get footbeds and or less stiff boots.
Secondly, if her skis are too stiff for the type of terrain she skis then she needs to consider getting more suitable skis which are not so stiff. In addition, if she is bowlegged then she should also consider getting more narrow waisted skis ( Bk 1 Pg 202 ). Possibly she might like to try shorter skis as they would make turns easier.
Thirdly, I also agree she should do some practising of better ski movements on slightly more gentle terrain whilst she works at building up her confidence in respect to speed.
Fourthly she should seek the advice of a recommended professional instructor ( PMTS, of course ) and not listen to her "friends" advice as she'll only learn more of her friends bad habits.
Fifthly, if I was the instructor, I would work towards getting her to do :
a Weighted Release ( Bk 2 Pg 80 & The Instructor Manual Pg 140 ) .
I'd work on her pulling her free foot back , "tipping water" and lastly working on a Strong-Arm position but initially without the poles.

I appreciate some of the latter terms I've used are purely PMTS but they're fairly common throught-out the PMTS literature so for the unintiated it would be easy to find......


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Postby Intermediately challenged » Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:46 am

Isn't it interesting that one PSIA insturctor responded (I thank you for your comments Rusty) but basically you didn't offer any movement advice to change the skier's situation. Most others who responded, I gather are recreational skiers, they offered movement advice. Is the the major difference between PMTS and PSIA?
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Postby Thor » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:15 am

Intermediately challenged wrote:Isn't it interesting that one PSIA insturctor responded (I thank you for your comments Rusty) but basically you didn't offer any movement advice to change the skier's situation. Most others who responded, I gather are recreational skiers, they offered movement advice. Is the the major difference between PMTS and PSIA?


The PSIA vs PMTS thing does not make better skiers. Talking about skiing is not what skiing is about. Skiing is about getting out to the mountains or the hills and get dirty at improving one's skills. Pointing fingers does nothing for skiing. Plus, after a while all this PSIA/PMTS gets old and makes some feel like skiing instruction is overall a big hoax which is not good for either PSIA or PMTS alike. Those are my $.03 of wisdom.
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Postby ydnar » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:41 am

Youv'e described s classic tail pusher. Most of them ski like this because they are trying to shift weight and edge the ski by pushing on it. Most of these skiers are totally unaware that there is a rotary component to the move they make.

First, I would have to get some info from the student. I would ask just what movements they are making now the create their turns. I would need to find out why they are taking the lesson. With this knowledge and watching them ski I would be able to start out. Basicly, I would start out skiing them on very easy terrain to let them get a feel for using movements of the feet to use the skis to take them where they want to go. I would introduce the idea of moving forward. I would expect that this skier will revert to a wedge on easier terrain but will quickly become parallel as they learn to point and tip the left foot to guide them left and the right foot to guide them right.

Depending on terrain that the student has been skiing and how long they have been skiing I would expect that they would be skiing a round, arcy, brushed turn on most all blue terrain within three hours.

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Postby Willy » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:02 am

Since Christmas is not too far away, I would give her Everybody Can Be an Expert Skier volume 1 and 2 + DVDs as a present. That should fix the problem pretty quickly. Maybe she skis that way because she hopes you present her with HH's materials.
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I don't think you can lump like that

Postby John Mason » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:06 am

Intermediately challenged wrote:Isn't it interesting that one PSIA insturctor responded (I thank you for your comments Rusty) but basically you didn't offer any movement advice to change the skier's situation. Most others who responded, I gather are recreational skiers, they offered movement advice. Is the the major difference between PMTS and PSIA?


The emphasis on specific movements patterns would be a natural focus with people with PMTS background, but that wouldn't be exclusive to PMTS at all.

Rusty gave a good overview, I was more specific with an actual lesson plan. To have a lesson plan not actually knowing or being familiar with the skier is a leap of faith. I see more commonality in the answers than differences.
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Alignment issues!!!

Postby SkierSynergy » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:03 pm

Bluey,

Yes. You have noted the alignment question. Yes! There is a good chance that movement instruction would do very little and the person would just waste money on instruction and that a little $$ in alignment and/or equipment would do more than a year of lessons.

I presented this case because I was reading the movement analysis section of the PSIA Technical manual and the skier that was presented as an assessment example (the case of Chloe) was almost exactly like a friend that I ski with. She has been to a PMTS session and she really struggles because of her alignment. The description that I gave and that appeared in the tech manual example should really alert you to the possibility of a bowlegged alignment (and/or possible tibial varum -- acurve in the tibia).

These skiers tend to be more upright and stiff -- which can predispose them to a weight back bias -- especially if they have the wrong set-up in their equipment; often they just get the wrong advice and get the generic heel lift. They have trouble balancing especially on edge. They can't get their skis to engage at the top of the turn so they rotate and drift to initiate, then all at once they bring their knee/leg in and over the BTE (that tends to stick up off the snow) and they get a big big knock kneed behavior as they try to engage the BTE (which is just as hard for them to balance on). This gets a lot worse with tibial varum. Even with excessive rolling in on that edge with leg and upper body, they still can't get good edge engagement (and all the lines of force are not optimal) so their tails swish out.

Whole body ski twist/drift on the top of the turn; knock kneed tail swish on the bottom; balance problems . . . all contribute to this type of skier's feeling that they lack speed control -- even though the skier is probably really cranking sharp J style turns (i.e., feeling like she is always putting on the brakes every turn).

What was the PSIA Tech Manual advice????

First there was no mention that these patterns are classic clues to misalignment. Instead the manual presents a grab bag of psychological and lage scale movement/awareness issues to work on.

There is a lot of discussion of focused on her personal characteristics and the kind of instructional relationship she desires -- you know, all the stuff from the core concepts manual. When it gets to more technically related issues, a grab bag of possibilities are offered:

She is diagnosed with possible stance issues related to her balance difficulties.

She has potential awareness/ skill deficiencies related to "feeling the right "interaction between her skis and the snow" (I think we mean carving/edging here) -- ask questions like, "do you feel the edges engage the snow? "Do your skis move forward or sideways in the snow?" etc.;

and she may need to make some tactical changes in her turn shape ( move from a Z or J shape to more of an S shape[Duh!]). So, in a nut shell, here are the possible things that were recommended to change/work on:

1. Maybe making the stance wider and more open to aid the balance problems (sic).

2. Experimenting / varying the turn shape and speed in an attempt to give her greater awareness of her edging skills and the ski/snow interaction. This includes the extremes of "whipping her skis sideways as hard as she can" and making very slow arcs. Supposedly, this would also help her work on an awareness and ability to make the more subtle, controlled blend of edging and steering movements -- which she obviously lacks.

3. Celebrate and play

The section concludes by saying that because Chloe is a smart young athletic woman, you will probably see a lot of change without much technical work.

Lest we make this a PSIA vs. PMTS thing. I will challenge the PMTSers to think about the advice you gave.

For those of you that gave movement advice think back through what you would have tried to do with this skier and ask how easy it would have been to do the movemements that you advised.

Phantom moves with a TRE pattern, for instance, would be really hard. Trying to balance on the up hill LTE is really hard for a bow legged person and then the knee would radically drop to the inside again making balance really hard. Even on one foot, the same pattern of movements described above would tend to happen. However, being on one foot would have probably just exaserbatated everything. Do you think your skier would have been pleased or frustrated with your advice? Would they be back for another lesson?

What movement instructions could be given? What are the limits of movement instruction in this case? What else could be done? etc.

I'll leave that to discussion.
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Postby Bluey » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:39 pm

In my lmited experience & IMHO, I think only a trained/experienced instructor could have the necessary skills/experience to identify the problems/outcomes which a skier presents on the slopes.......once this is done then I guess the instructor works on what's the worst thing the skier is doing & tries to fix that.

I wish I could identify exactly what I do wrong, as clearly as the case study above.....but its physically difficult to see yourself and without an trained instructor observing ....well, it becomes too difficult.......


I was interested in the questions that an instructor would ask of the skier ( a la ydnar/Rusty) and this has given me some better insights as to what I should be asking myself about my skiing.
I need to go away and think about these questions ( read..... slow aussie thinker ) 'cause I always have difficulty knowing what I'm actually doing,...... in the sense that I know what I'm attempting to do but I'm not sure if that's what's happening...if you get my drift......a least with PMTS I have a jargon in which to communicate which is simple and effective for me......now all I need to do is work out the questions........


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