Case Study from SkierSynergy -- help my friend.

[BB/ Colorado]

I'll tell you a story. Earlier this season I was leading a clinic at Telluride for Full-Certified instructors training for "Trainer Accreditation," our "level 4" in the Rocky Mountains. We were standing on a blue run, watching skiers and throwing ideas around about their skiing and about what they might "need".
One of the skiers we watched was a woman showing all the moves of classic "pre-sidecut" skiing, at a high level of skill. Down--UP--and around, with a blocking pole plant, pushing off the platform of a strongly-set edge into each turn, throwing the tails out into a skid, sometimes both at once, sometimes one-at-a-time, well-balanced, but "back" because of the braking action of her skis. Her speed control came entirely from the braking/skidding effect of her edges scraping away speed, refusing to glide. The instructors were throwing out ideas of how her movements would need to change to make "better," more contemporary turns.

"She'll need to adjust her stance more forward." "Stop making that blocking pole plant and replace it with a smooth swing into the turn." "RELEASE her edges and guide her tips downhill into the turn, rather than pushing her tails out." "Stop rotating her upper body and become more active with her feet." "Move her center-of-mass into the turn, rather than pushing it uphill." "Balance over her skis, rather than bracing against them." And so on.... All these observations were correct.

"But it will be VERY hard to get her to make any of these changes," one of them said. "She's obviously been skiing like this for a long time, and her habits are deeply ingrained."

I told them that I could get her to make ALL the changes they recommended, instantly, with only two words.

We were standing at the end of a flatter section, above a slightly steeper roll, so I knew she would stop where we were. I told her that we were all instructors, and asked her if she would mind participating in a little experiement with us. She looked a little quizzical, but she agreed.

I was standing just below her on the hill, and I simply said, "come here," and waved her down the hill with me as I moved away quickly. What do you suppose she did, in response to my two words?

She moved her whole body down the hill toward me--"forward" over her feet. She stepped her skis, downhill ski first, down the hill toward me, which of course required her to release its edge ("left tip left to go left"). Her arms and poles swung smoothly toward me too, naturally, helping with the flow of motion in the direction she was trying to GO.

No blocking pole plant. No edgeset. No pushoff. No upper body rotation. Active feet and legs steering both skis into the new direction. Every movement she made moved in the direction she was going--toward me. No pushing of the tails. All the changes we thought she should make, she made.

And I had said absolutely NOTHING about technique--not a single word about HOW to do it. All I did was create a situation that put her in the offensive state of mind where she wanted to GO THAT WAY, rather than her usual intent to STOP GOING THIS WAY. Her movements followed suit.

Best regards.

[John Mason]

I'm assuming this is an example of the "Go" factor spoken of on Epic.

I suppose if the biggest issue was fore aft balance holding back the skier, this might be a big change. For other skiers, this alone might not be enough to create a big immediate change.

Is the biggest factor just a complete defensive mindset to skiing, or is the defensive mindset from a lack of tools. Can adding the "Go" factor add the set of tools if they are not there in the muscle memory to begin with?

Nice to have you posting here Bob!

[Bluey]

Any practical suggestions ( apart from take-more-lessons) or advice can one give on how to change a defensive mind set?


Do you think one of the main causes of a defensive mind set is brought about by the few bad outcomes from the first few attempts at skiing?

Can we tell whether our hypothetical skier in the case study above has a defensive mind set by her actions and if yes, then what are the clues to look for?



Bluey......

[jclayton]

BB/Colorado ,
finish the story , did she realize what she had done and did she start working on a change or did she remain unconcious of it all . Quite a neat experiment though .

[jclayton]

Me again BB ,
sounds like some of Tim Galweys approaches, disassociating the intellect . He's not much referred to these days !

[SkierSynergy]

I also welcome BB's post over here.

I think there is an interesting thread in some of the last posts and I will start a new topic that quotes BB's comments to start it.

I am doing this because I would say that the last few posts are a bit off of the point I was trying to push.

Given the alignment issue and the potential effects of the advice given in the PSIA Tech Manual and (and also in some of the posts), the results could be frustrating and useless or even make the person's skiing worse (I actually think this is true in the case of the Tech Manual's advice).

If the person in the example case is showing the movement patterns because of an important alignment issue, I think that the recommended advice is simply BS. Worse it is immoral to give the person the impression that they will improve substantially if they just continue to plop down more money.

I will challenge PMTS folks here to, but I do so more for the manual issue because it is part of official training material.

By the way, at the footbed training last week, I was looking at an Eastern Div PSIA manual from the mid 90s and there was a great section on alignment issues that Harald had written. I think all such info has been dropped from succeeeding PSIA manuals. Is this correct. How could that happen when it is so potentially important.

Also while we were doing the footbed training last week, several very involved racer kids came in to Harb Ski Systems for work on their equipment. Most were frustrated because they were doing what their coaches were telling them and they just weren't improving. Most also had videos along. Often it was totally clear from the videos that they had alignment problems. One skier who was very bowlegged was just being told by his coach to "Get more edge!" What useless coaching on so many levels! More so, it was incompetent of the coach not to recognize the need to address the alignment issue.

By the way, lest you tghink this issue is just marketing, I also saw Harald do two alignment measurent sessions in which he found relatively normal, functional feet and advised both people to buy less than $30 off-the-shelf footbeds from other sources - he even gave one person an example footbed to take with him to another shop. It's not about marketing. It's about service and performance. Enough of this rant. I'll post another topic.

[Intermedaitely challenged]

In my first set of ski lessons I was told to rise, flatten my skis and steer my legs to push my skis into the turn. Some one else told me to flex my leg, bend my legs and tilt my old downhill foot. You may be the professionals, but that sounds totally different to me and feels different. Not only are these different instructions, I achieved very different results.

I?ll leave it up to you to tell me which one I should continue doing, I don?t know which will bring me to my skiing goal faster?

[SkierSynergy]

Simple.

Avoid going in the direction of the first advice. It's bullshit.

Go in the direction of the last advice. It will take you to the real deal turn.

PM me and I'll send you some more info.

[Rusty Guy]

Isn't it interesting that one PSIA insturctor responded (I thank you for your comments Rusty) but basically you didn't offer any movement advice to change the skier's situation. Most others who responded, I gather are recreational skiers, they offered movement advice. Is the the major difference between PMTS and PSIA?

I would respectfully argue I did offer movement advice. Perhaps it wasn't clear. One of the things I vehemently agree with HH about is the importance of "movement" beginning in the foot. That is where I would start with the student.

Borrowing from Bob Barnes I would, given the chance, start in bare feet (indoors) and explore come here or go there movements. If not indoors on snow sans skis. Skiing is not that much different than walking.

SS, I agree that alignment is important. You are talking to a guy who has spent a lot of time and energy finding the right boot setup. I'm not sure that I agree with you that it is quite the panacea you describe.

I also chuckled at you saying well into your comments about alignment that you didn't want to turn the discussion into a PSIA vs PMTS thing.

I'll trust that wasn't your intent, argue that you succeeded in doing so, and would further state if that was not your desire why cite PSIA documents?

I will be the first to suggest I don't agree or care for much of what is written in the new PSIA "manuals". That is another topic!

I spent an absolutely wonderful day skiing with a former poster child for HH. SCSA, Bob and I go back quite a ways. SCSA and I had a wonderful exchange of ideas. We will never agree about many things, however, for a variety of reasons we will always feel a kinship.

That same sort of thing can certainly occur here without any us vs. them verbiage.

[SkierSynergy]

Rusty,

My thinking about this really was prompted by the example case in the PSIA manual. That and being open and accurate is why I cite it. I do the same with PMTS written materials, so that people can go to the original source and make up their own mind if I'm being accurate and fair.

I don't think that alignment is a panecea, but the description in the case sceams out to be noticed. Based on the written description, there is a very, very good chance that the person is not explicitly trying to do a classic push off sort of turn initiation. She just can't help what she is doing because of the alignment issue.

Obviously, I don't think much of the guidance that was given in the Tech manual. If something as questionable had appeared in a PMTS document, I woud have said a similar thing in the similar way -- citations included. However, on this issue the PMTS instructor's manual is quite clear. It explicitly addresses how alignment affects movement patterns and performance, and requires instructor's to be able to seperate movement needs from alignment issues in a sytematic way.

I discussed the example of the TRE pattern with the phantom precisely to challenge PMTSers on the list. I chose not to quote individual's posts because that would tend to make it more of a personal issue. Whereas a tech or teaching document is a presentation of officially promoted techique/pedegogy. For me that makes it less focused on individuals and more focused on content -- that is a good thing. I would welcome a critical discussion of the PMTS teaching manual. Some of the issues in my other topic on the movement pedegogy of PMTS might be interestingly challenged.

I remember at a fall instructor's canp there were a few women discussing the analytical nature of the instruction and their recent experiences at an all women's camp. They were saying how they didn't think Harald always thought about what he was doing . . . that when he wasn't instructing he must be feeling a lot more, more in touch, just flowing. I cann't remember the person that was listening to them, but he interrupted, saying: "Oh he is always thinking. Harald is always thinking about his skiing, analyzing what he is doing, the performance of the ski, how he can get more out of the ski, etc." whether that's true or not is not the point. I think it's fair to say that PMTS conscioously leans that way in pedegogical approach. How effective that is could certainly be up for a good discussion. The preeminent use of external cues is another good issue. These are all issues supported in the PMTS Instructors Manual and can be discussed without any reference to any individual.

I don't want to give the impression that I think PSIA and PMTS approaches are equal. I clearly think that PMTS is just plain better, but I'll be an equal opportunity questioner when I see something that should be questioned and won't overly emphasize negative personal issues. Most importantly, I am not just trying to PSIA bash. I want to discuss important content. I will bring an issue/example up because I think something can be learned from it or the discussiion will be informative for anyone who takes part.

In this case, it is something out of the PSIA Manual that I was actually reading.

By the way, I just met SCSA for the first time last week ago. Nice guy . . a little . . . well he's a nut . . in a good way . . . anyway, I think. I am looking forward to skiing with him again.

[Bob Barnes/Colorado]

To whom it may concern:

I was a bit surprised to be told that I had just made a post in the realskiers forum, when I had not. I'm even more surprised now to read "my" post, since it is actually a post I DID write at EpicSki, in 2002, in this thread: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=114460

So, while I do not disagree with anything in that post by "BB/Colorado," for obvious reasons, I would appreciate it if, when someone copies and pastes my words like this, you would at least explain that that is what you have done, and not pretend to actually be me making the post. Whoever did that, please do not do it again.

For the record, I did not make that post, and I am not "BB/Colorado," although I did write those words, and I stand by them!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[Bluey]

Crikey....

well it wasn't me nor do I think it would be any of our regular posters......

and for those who are newcomers to this forum, I would like to point out that this misnamed "Guest" has struck plenty of other times in this forum.....whether its the same person or a group of person's is unclear to me......
only this time it been done with even worst/appalling etiquette than in times past.....
a new low for our unwelcome "Guest" who has, to state the obvious, stolen/misused someone else's name and not just anybodies' name.... this time he's stolen a significant person's name.......

Shame,shame, shame........

"Guest" has now vandalised us again and offended someone who generally resides in another forum and shouldn't have to spend his time over here defending himself.....


Bluey.....

[Guest]

In the past I got blamed for all the guest postings!

I called Bob to applaud his posting and was surprised by his surprise. At least the "cut and paster" didn't make any changes.

[Rusty]

oops..........my post above

[Rusty Guy]

SS,

I understand and respect where you are coming from. I don't think anyone would suggest that you are not open and accurate.

As I have stated, I'm not wild about much of the content in the two newest PSIA manuals.

I also agree that severe alignment issues may inhibit "good" movements.

Lastly, SCSA is a unique person and it is hard to not like him, even given his occasional examples of volatility!