Pole Plant Timing ????????

[jclayton]

And now for something different !

I always was told the pole plant had to come just before or at the moment of release , to trigger the release .

Watching Thomas Grandi on video 1 ( again , but he's just been given an award in Canada so he must be good ) he starts to swing the pole forward at the point of initiation of the release , the actual plant seems to come as his upper body moves across the skis . It looks very rythmical and smooth .

I noticed myself that if I did the plant strictly at initiation of the foot release it seemed to chop up the rythm a bit .

Watching Haralds plants as well in video 1 , I saw the same thing , the actual plant after initiation of release . Again rytmical .

Whats the deal on this ? Is a strict plant at or fractionally before release important to avoid a late plant at the learning stage ? In the videos Skiersynergy just posted Haralds plants do seem to be earlier but the image wasn't so good so maybe I didn't see it very well .

[Harald]

J, swing before you release, point the pole tip to the bottom of the slope, tap or plant, move off the edges, push or move your hand forward and up, into the next turn.. As speed increases and energy becomes greater your timing will match your releasing needs.

[jclayton]

Thanks,
thats a relief , it is simple .

[Bluey]

Pole timing....

The use of the pole doesn't seem to get much/enough airplay

HH's books cover it in a fair amount of detail on the macro level ( eg elbows/hand/knuckle postion etc...) but the one factor which, IMHO, seems critical..... is the Timing of each component of what HH describes above....

It's easy to say...... just practice it more...... and I think that is probably the right answer but my take on the timing of the "pole" actions is that there needs to be more concentration of thought during the early part of the turn on these early actions....
and in particular, the specific bits described above by HH , such as

"swing before you release, point the pole tip to the bottom of the slope"........

I think this quoted part was particularly critical for me last season and when the timing was wrong here, the rest of the actions became rushed and the upper body had to compensate which I resulted in an incorrect shift of balance....causing an imbalance and lack of smoothness/style....read occasional hard landing. But Fun factor was still hgh....

I also noticed last season that when I brought more conscious thought to the timing of my pole swing and the position of my knuckles/hands/arms/shoulders during the "swing" that my turns improved immediately.
I also found that using the Flowing pole plant to trigger the release gave me a nice sense of control on groomed runs.
But, making a Stabilizing pole plant under other more difficult conditions was generally not as easy when the situation required more/better timed actions with the lower body/feet/balance/speed etc and these all sucked up my concentration so it didn't leave much time to get the early pole swing etc into play......I need more practice....next year is too far away....


Bluey.....

[Ken]

Ron LeMaster makes a good point in his book. He says that the pole should be presented forward at about a 45? angle. When it is put into the snow at an angle, and the skier is moving toward the pole, the pole tends to push the skier around and begin the turn. He explains it much better than I, and I can feel it but can't adequately express it.


Ken

[Pierre]

Harald's right here on pole touch. He has avoided really zeroing in on where the touch happens in the turn because that is determined by the size and intensity of the turn and by the intent of the skier. The slope and type of terrain also has a bearing on where the touch happens. You may see the touch in many different places in relation to the edge change in top skiers for this reason.

Zero in on good practice and let the touch happen.

[SkierSynergy]

I will throw out two different types of pole/arm rythm.

The first is a propotional rythm. In a very proportional rythm of pole movement will see the pole half way though the swing as the skier is half way through the turn, 3/4 at 3/4 the way through the turn etc. The pole plant marking the point at or just before the end of the turn (release).

If I don't think much and just get into the flow, I tend to have a proportional rythm of pole movement. It's not a big problem when skiing on stuff that is uniform and not really challenging (e.g., groomers, nice powder), but if conditions are more challenging irregular "real mountain" conditions (e.g, real mountain bumps as opposed to regularly spaced artificial comp bumps, crud, steep chop or ice, etc.), then a proportional rythm tends to put me behind in my pole movements. Eventually, it causes a problem somewhere in the run.

The second type of rythm is a syncopated irregular rythm. As soon as you plant, push your pole forward into the "plant position" (without planting) as fast as you can, then let it pause, in position. It will be there ready for the plant when you choose. Then let the irregular rythm of terrain and your tactics determine the timming of the plant. Most of the time, in bumps or real mountain terrain, if you push it forward as fast as you can, it will be there just in time. In more relaxed conditions it will produce a definite feeling of pause just before the plant (the pole movement equivalent of "the float").

A proportional rythm is when the metranome (sp?) controls the movements and you try to keep up with it. The second rythm is when the jazz musician gives himself the control and pause to effortlessly change the beat as he desires.

By the way, pushing the arm and pole tip forward fast not only puts you ahead of the game and gives you a welcome pause to decide the best pole plant, it also helps produce all of the functional upper-body secondary movements faster in the upper part of the turn and gives you a better chance for a float in the lower body as well.

Try practicing it to 130% on the easy stuff so it will be there at 100% when you need it. It will feel a little weird at first to have a pause before planting, but give it a try for a bit before hitting the bumps and see what happens.

[Bluey]

Thanks SS for your elaboration on the timing of pole rhythm.


In respect to the second type of rhythm , being, as you call it, syncopated irregular rhythm ( jazz backgroud ?? ) it appears to me that if I follow the literal description you have given then I question whether my new inside pole can achieve a Strong-Arm position and yet at the same time wont this early pushing-forward cause a disruption of Uppper Body co-ordination....... unless, possibly, I need to also work on a conscious pulling in of the elbow towards the body to maintain balance as the high part of the turn develops.........apologies if this is not clear but I physcially tried what you suggested above in my "lounge room" and it left me wondering why the inside arm needs to be in such an unbalanced position so early in the turn except possibly if the turns are very short radius/bump type turns........


Apologies if I am concentrating a minor point but as I like the overall flavour of what I'm now calling the.... "jazz -style pole plant"..... I want to be exactly clear about the timing /use of the inside arm.....I found the current use of the Strong-Arm position of the inside arm to be really powerful and I don't want to compromise want I have already achieved by mucking around with suggestion I don't fully understand......


Bluey....

[SkierSynergy]

. . . it appears to me that if I follow the literal description you have given then I question whether my new inside pole can achieve a Strong-Arm position and yet at the same time wont this early pushing-forward cause a disruption of Uppper Body co-ordination unless, possibly, I need to also work on a conscious pulling in of the elbow towards the body to maintain balance as the high part of the turn develops.........apologies if this is not clear but I physcially tried what you suggested above in my "lounge room" and it left me wondering why the inside arm needs to be in such an unbalanced position so early in the turn except possibly if the turns are very short radius/bump type turns........

What I'm describing is consistent with a strong arm movement (I prefer to use "movement" rather than "position") and ULBC.

When I say push the arm forward. I mean pushing it forward using a strong arm movement. I would contrast this with the advice that people get in the bumps sometimes to just keep their hands forward (i.e., down the hill and in front of their feet). This cycle is: plant . . . a strong arm movement through the turn . . . plant. I am just saying keep the arm movement ahead of the turn cycle. This also facilitates an early High C counter action.

My point is to speed up the arm movement toward the plant a bit.

Get an image of the proportional rythm. In this case the arm is not ready for the plant until just the moment of release. But I found that more often than not, somewhere along the cycle, it ends up behind in the cycle of where it should be. So I get a bigger faster swing right at the end of the cycle to catch up. Sometimes, the actual plant may happen too late. Often this is because I get lazy; sometimes other things in the terrain take my attention and the pole plant suffers.

So, what I'm suggesting is take the image of the proportional rythm and speed the arm action up a bit so that it's ahead of the game. You should be enough ahead of what your turn is doing so that there is an instant of pause just before the plant. There is time to decide. You are ahead in the cycle and determining the pole movement rythm.

Lots of people think: pick a line and set a rythm -- this allows them to just set a proportional metranome pole plant rythm.

However, in anything other than regular conditions (groomers,powder, artificial bumps, etc.). The rythm is never regular. Where and when you start your turn and the duration of the turn, etc. are changing from turn to turn as you make tactical choices. The same will be true of your pole plant. To have the ability to constantly change things, keep your pole plant cycle a little ahead of the game!

I think you will find this will be different on the hill than in the living room. If you concentrate on using a strong arm movement, you won't be able to just toss you arm in front so early that you feel you are in an awkward position.

You are right that it gets more intense as the turns get shorter (e.g., bumps). On long easy turns, it's easy to stay ahead (or catch up if you need). On the opposite end, in the bumps, it feels like I'm really pushing the cycle, but I'm usually at the plant just in time. Of course the best place to learn/practice is somewhere between -- that point where it's challenging to get a bit of a pre-plant pause, but you can do it if you try.


Hope this helps.

[Bluey]

SS,
Thanks for taking the time to clear up my misundertstanding of your earlier post


I'm clear now as to what you are proposing...I'll work on this next time I'm on the snow.....

Thanks again

Bluey

[skirmaster]

There is a difference between a pole plant and a pole touch. When a person is using a pole plant they are using a defensive mechanism. When they use a pole touch they are being offensive minded although you can have a defensive pole touch. What does this mean to the average skier.

Many skiers have been taught to plant the pole and then shift their weight to help them start into the new turn. They use the plant to slow their momentum, recover their balance and to give them a mechanism to begin the new turn. When they do this they are creating a pause between their turns, too strong of a weight shift accompanied by overpowering movements of the upper body which usually leads to an unbalanced turn shape and a lack of rhythm.

Since I am trying to quiet my upper body and use my lower body to develop the turning movements then I normally use a pole touch instead of a pole plant. It allows for softer movements and less tension in my body as I do not hold the pole grip so strongly with my hand. Think of how relaxed you are when you loosen your grip up on the handle in other sports. I hold the pole plant back for times when I am in trouble and need a strong platform to slow my movements down and allow me time to recover from a problem such as hitting an ice patch unexpectedly on a steep hill throwing me off balance.

A pole touch needs to be accompanied by a proper pole swing as it will help you with the timing of your turns if done correctly. I use my pole swing to help me with the shape of my turn, timing and release into the new turn. A shorter swing for shorter turns and longer swing for longer turns. If you watch most skiers on the hill making a pole plant it is normally the same quick short pole swing at the end the turn no matter how long a turn they have made. You can see how there timing is thrown off with each turn.

When I am using the pole swing correctly with a touch at the end I am normally making an offensive pole touch. I am using the swing of the pole to draw me into the new turn allowing me to have a smooth release of the edges, my center of mass crosses over my skiis at the exact moment that the new turn is initiated. I then touch the tip of the pole into the snow as I move into the new turn driving the hand forward to maintain proper upper body positioning and start the swing of the opposite pole to help with timing of the next turn.

This allows me to have smooth continuous turning movements from one turn into the next and keeps my rhythm constant. My speed will either stay constant depending on the turn shape and edging characteristics or increase. There is not a herky jerky slow down speed up syndrome that is characteristic of many skiers.

The offensive pole touching technique that I just reviewed is what you have seen when you were watching the video and you noticed a touch after initiation. It is the same technique that is used by ski racers, top mogul skiers and other experts that you see skiing with strong techniques down the hill.

Now for the defensive pole touch! It is the technique that most people use, is almost the same as a pole plant but the resulting turning characteristics are different. I use the defensive pole touch to help keep my speed down in the moguls, on steeper terrain and when I am doing slow short swing turns not in my normal skiing.

I still use the pole swing to help with my timing but instead of using it to draw me into the next turn I use it to set up the end of my old turn. I swing the pole down the hill in the path that I am taking (think of touching on a straight line below you going directly down the hill) and touch it just before I release my center of mass into the new turn (notice release my weight and not shift). This allows me to finish the old turn strongly, start the new turn with a smooth slow release of the edges, stay in balance and keep my speed to a pace that I am comfortable with.

I drive the hand of the pole that I am touching forward and down the hill so it does not drop behind me causing me to lose my balance a common cause of a lack of speed control in the steeps and moguls. It also draws my upper body down the hill over the place that I touched keeping my center of mass in front of my feet and me in balance. Lastly it keeps me from turning around the pole a common result of a strong pole plant and a technique that is taught to go along with it creating unbalancing movements and further loss of control.

The differences between a defensive pole plant and touch are seemingly subtle until you go out and play with them. The plant will be herky jerky and you will find you have a hard time maintaining balance and control while the touch is smooth helping you to ski stronger and more relaxed. It is a technique that will help you have more fun in steeper or more challenging terrain.

So the next time you go out on the hill find a nice groomed slope, make your normal turn shapes along with pole swings and see what type of pole plant or touch you have. Is it are hard plant? A soft touch? Do you turn around the pole or move forward and over it? Have a friend watch you to see what you are doing and after you discover the technique that you use. Play with the others to see how they work and if they improve your skiing. You should find the offensive pole touching technique a great tool to have in your quiver.

I hope this helps, is fun, along with teaching you a few more things about your poles and how they can be great tools when used properly. Great skiing to you all.

S

[jclayton]

Nice explanation,
food for thought and something to play with when I start my season in 10 days .

[jclayton]

Just came back from 5 days in the Pyrene?s . Great snow . All the advice on pole use was implemented with positive results . Special thanks to Skiersynergy and Skimaster for their detailed explanations which were not difficult to put into practise . Rythm was noticeably improved and turns felt more positive .

A little dig at Skimaster , for an anti-tech head your explanation of pole use was quite detailed and technical , but also most applicable . Is your prejudice against the " boffins " who pull everything apart in a very theoretical way ?

[skirmastr]

Nice ? J. I was getting off on the counter rotation thread and how some people get a little too detailed in explaining things. This is on both sides of the equation. As I tried to say in my cat cough the people that would be really into that info would be professors not your general lay person. You have to keep things very simple when trying to teach someone and that is what I was trying to explain.

Different pole plants needed to have a little more detailed information in the written context because you are not on the hill to demonstrate so you have to give them a hopefully clear picture in their or your brain to use. I tried to keep my explanations simple and detailed. I enjoy reading the threads that others write I just shake my head occasionally.

[skirmastr]

J, Thank you for the recognition in your thread. I am glad that you found the information that I shared with you useful. It helps me in my skiing and I was hoping that it would yours.

I am trying to practice what I preach and play with the PTMS method and so far I have not had much success. I found it stiff, robotic and non-athletic but I will continue to work with it. As with anything new ways can feel like that.

Thank you again and let me know if you have any other questions.