Comparison of Technique -- TTS & PMTS

[SkierSynergy]

I thought this might make a nice comparison of technique issues.
I hope that the discussion focuses on differences in technique and technical issues and stays away personal comparisons. I think issues here cut across lots of ground. Though I don?t know him, I think it would be fair to say that Weems, for example, is fairly representative of a traditional skiing/teaching approach and he has has endorsed the SBS alignment system (http://www.footfoundation.com/ski-al.htm). I think they are part of a consistent package of results. I had asked a few questions about this system in the following thread on Epic (hidden in a thread on Bode): http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=210242

Harald Harb on the other hand is in opposition to what is taught in traditional teaching systems and has also strongly opposed alignment approaches similar to SBS

Here were the links for the original videos of two people from a traditional teaching approach.

Here are a couple that illustrate this turn pretty well:
http://www.websurd.com/epic2004/video/esa1.wmv (rob sogard)

http://www.websurd.com/epic2004/video/esa02.wmv (weems)

Note that not all the turns are the "perfect turns", see if you can tell which ones fit Barnes' definition.

Here was my analysis of the skiing in the above videos (Word document, 695K):

http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Videos/TTSMovementAnalysis.doc

The original PMTS thread that contained the quote was:

http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=267&sid=00b875575e07bbae82d39f3a0581291b


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Here is a video of HH making a few turns at Loveland on 10/27/04.

For very fast connections use the folowing (warning uncompressed AVI: 23 megs):

http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Videos//HHCarve.AVI

For more moderate connections, use this link (1.9 megs):

http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Videos//HHCarve.WMV

Here are two docs to look at for analysis.

The first is a simple photo montage of HH ? no comments (3.6 megs)

http://web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Videos//HHCarveMontage.doc

The next is a document with the pictures of the montage in a larger format and more detail ? with just a few comments (4.8 megs)

http://web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Temp/HHCarveDetail.doc

[BigE]

Very interesting. HH skis very nicely indeed!


I think it is important that any comparison should involve similar slopes and similar lines. This comparison sells both sides short! It implies PMTS = large carved turns and that TTS = short steered ones.

It is certainly true that steering is important in TTS, and carving is important to PMTS, but both are more than that. Do you perchance have any videos of HH performing turns of short radius/similar size to the sogard/weems turns in esa1 and esa2?

[SkierSynergy]

I think it is important that any comparison should involve similar slopes and similar lines. This comparison sells both sides short! It implies PMTS = large carved turns and that TTS = short steered ones . . .

Do you perchance have any videos of HH performing turns of short radius/similar size to the sogard/weems turns in esa1 and esa2?

I understand your point. I think it would be pretty hard to arrange in any formal sense. That same day Bob Barnes was up at Lovelenad skiing the same slopes, but I don't know him and I wouldn't feel right just taking and posting video unless there was aggreement on it -- and I didn't take any of him anyway. Whereas, as I understand, the other videos were taken and posted for the purpose of analysis and have been the subjects of threads on both the Epic and PMTS forums. Ott had asked me to think about my use of the videos, but I'm certain that they fall within fair use (legal) and informative use. Back to your point. the slope in the video was on the last little drop at the end of Nix Nox. I may have some shorter radius steeper stuff from last year. I'll take a look.

However, I still think that the videos are representative of some pretty clear differences that would be there no matter what the terrain or turn radius. I believe there are very clear and useful things to compare. There are things in The TTS videos that you just would never see in HH's skiing and vice versa. I'll keep quiet on what I think about it right now. I'll let other people comment on what I posted.

[John Mason]

There are things in The TTS videos that you just would never see in HH's skiing and vice versa.

Seeing multiple high level PMTS instructors ski on bumps, long sweepers, and very short radius, I can tell you the principles for making all these turns are the same.

This can be characterized as a release before the traverse line, passive engagement of the new stance foot at the top of the turn rather than any direct steering, little upper body movment, and absence of unweighting and pivoting motions. Also, these turns all use dynamic balance for creating edge angles. The skier is always vertically inside his inside ski in the turns even at the very start of them. (Even the beginner two footed release works this way in the bottom of the turn - so a beginner experiences this feel on day one of their skiing)

I don't know if this is proper "PMTS" or not, but in my own skiing, I do what David Weiss taught me when I challenged him in my first PMTS lesson that you couldn't use PMTS to do a hockey stop. I was wrong. Works for that to. It's how I do my own hockey stops now. I don't hip kick or do any active steering movements of my outside leg. I just lift my inside foot and tip it while keeping the tip in the snow. I just let my stance leg go flat. I can do a 360 this way, or hockey stop or anything in between. Basically, I'm not sure what rotation I would need that I couldn't generate with the phantom move creating it for me. Eski illustrates using the phantom move in a mid air hop turn as the best way to position everything for the landing and change in direction. He has a great picture montage of this. None of these turns are "carved", but they are still in the umbrella of PMTS.

[richk]

In what original format was the video acquired?

How are you transforming the video into the montage shots?

What way have you found to do slow motion and shuttle back and forth analyzing a single movement?

Very useful method to understand what is happening!

[SkierSynergy]

The original clip was uncompressed AVI downloaded from a digital vid camera. The smaller WMV clip was done in Windows movie maker (see below).

A very common piece of software is V1. It's very good software, but it's about $1000

http://www.v1sports.com/Academy/ALL/AS_Pro.asp

Sports Motion has very good software that is used for golf, but can be used for anything (the menus always refer to golf by default) for about $400 for two liscences. I use this.

http://www.sportsmotion.com/

Both of these allow you to slow things down, calculate angles, draw on the film images, overlay and compare two videos, and capture stills from the videos, etc.


A very easy thing to do is download clips into Windows movie maker. I do this all the time. It's included in windows XP. It will allow you to go frame by frame steps and pause in still. It also allows you to edit and export in different formats.

However, Win movie maker does not do slow motion, or allow you to capture stills -- even by trying a screen capture (Alt & Print screen). Also the video windwo is a little small, but Hey, it's free with Windows.

Hope this helps.

[Guest]

Jay,

The videos of Mt hood I'm trying to view won't show using the DivX codec.
Is there a chance that you could rework them into a more common, say wmv format?

I know it's asking a lot, but there is a very interesting thing going on at my house. I'll PM you....

[Harald]

I appears to me that your attempts to exonerate or let people down easy is demonstrated in your posts E. Today SL and GS radius turns are only different in radius, not mechanics. If you were able to see the speed and energy in the turns, which isn?t apparent in the video, you would know that the turns I?m making are more loaded, ski bent and rebounded then the turns demonstrated by the Weems and Sogards video.

How can anyone develop rebound and energy when the upper body is leaning progressively further from the DH ski as the turn develops? How can anyone develop rebound, ski bending dynamics and energy when they are rotating to drive the skis around the turn?

This comparison has absolutely nothing to do with turn size, and completely to do with different technical implementation. I make short turns exactly as I make medium turns the ones in the video, except my short turns have less duration and radius.

I would never revert to the push off, wedge entry, converging skis in my short turns that are obvious in the turns demonstrated by the demo teamer. Neither would any PMTS black, blue level or trainer.

Every once and a while I can relate to those movements when I make a mistake or lose my balance. Using those movements I feel mechanical and heavy, without pop in my skiing. I can?t remember the last time I braced on my DH ski and tried to get out of the turn by pushing off and rotating my body. I might rotate, but it is really more like aggressive following. I do this sometimes to accelerate the ski in the arc, but never to turn the skis. I sometimes catch myself being lazy on my right side with a little banking and following, because I have a bad knee, but when I focus it goes away immediately. This kind of following I?m talking about is not suitable (I am my own most severe critic) for me in my skiing, but in PSIA skiing, it is highly acceptable.

We in PMTS have different standards and they are not defined or altered by the radius of the turn. If someone is skiing with mistakes and poor technique, we deal with it and acknowledge it, as we can define it, point it out and correct it. We don?t just make excuses. It?s not the steepness of the slope, the size of the turns or the clinic content, its either efficient good or inefficient. We have objective standards that are easily detected and measured. You either did it, can do it or didn?t and can?t. Next candidate please!

[BigE]

I am not trying to exonerate or let down easy. I was really just angling for a PMTS SL style demo.

I still do believe that there are a lot of people that think PMTS = GS radius turns. I'm certain that there are many that think brushed carve = skidding and discard PMTS. Or that PMTS = no rotation, which supports PMTS = GS. Or PMTS = park and ride.... There's a lot of misunderstanding, and a PMTS demo of SL radius turns would go a long way to dispel many many myths.

[Guest]

Harald,

Might you share your ski size in this footage - my guess is a 173cm / ~15m radius profile.

They appear wicked soft for you with that kind of loading...

[BigE]

You may find this interesting: I showed the videos to my wife. She is not an expert skier.

Here were her comments. On HHcarve:

"These are just lazy turns. No big deal. It would've been nice to see him ski by."

On TTS videos, I asked "What do you think of the others?" She replied:

"You mean the guys just learning to ski?"

[SkierSynergy]

I think, that day, Harald was on Head RD boots (though they were a special ultra stiff version that were never released) and this year's 173cm Head Laminate iSLs. They are a very very stiff ski with about a 15 meter radius.

What kills me about that video is that Harald is making fairly hard carves, but his countering, etc. is really very minimal. He counters early and keeps the belly button pointed outside the turn just enough to do the job. There is very little extra effort there, but he manages a very hard carves and manages to really bend a pretty stout ski. This is why it looks so effortless.

[jclayton]

It looks to me that he is also pulling his new free foot (right foot) back well before it is flattened . Almost as soon as he starts to release . Am I right or is the image a bit deceptive ?

[Guest]

I think, that day, Harald was on Head RD boots (though they were a special ultra stiff version that were never released) and this year's 173cm Head Laminate iSLs. They are a very very stiff ski with about a 15 meter radius.

Thanks SS. When looking at the HH montage photos (thank you) you can see substantial deflection of the forebody of the ski - and this is entering the fall line - this indicates the ski can't handle the amount of load being given. Certainly his speed and the snow conditions were considered.

I wanted to verify his ski length and side cut radius, only to have a clearer understanding of the interaction of the tools and the result created. You confirmed what appeared to me to be the ski length and radius.

My background is race coaching (adolescents).

As a preface, I have much respect for HH's efforts in providing an alternative learning path. I really appreciate the youthfulness in his skiing! He's always been a good skier. His passion and convictions and desire for innovation within his programs are certainly refreshing. I've enjoyed reading his materials. Thanks, Harald.

Watching his skis in this brief video clip, what strike me, beyond all that is good: It appears that the arc is getting sawed off in the fall line - for whatever reason. The apex of the turn in the fall line is being rushed. Instead of 'down and around' (path of the ski) he's rushing to exit the fall line as soon as he enters it - a bit too quickly. The ski displaces more laterally in the fall line thru fall line exit, instead of knifing the edge as he is certainly capable of demonstrating. This mashing of the edge compromises the turn's rhythm and does not do justice to how refined his ski-snow accuracy is. Hence, with a skier of his level, I wanted to understand his equipment first. I will stand by my first observation and suggest the forebody of that ski is too soft..... or.... a more disciplined modulation of pressure and sensing for a cleaner slicing edge thru the fall line/fall line exit phase is encouraged to be explored.

SS, I appreciate the comparative footage you provided - the ol' "two step" turn entry is butt ugly, mechanical and I personally can't believe people think it's good skiing. Your montages and descriptions said it all. Yuck!

[Whygimf]

Thie above post is mine - I'm a newbie here.