World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

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World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:00 am

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2010/12/transition-with-retraction-and-flexing.html

The posts below are excerpts (edited) from an e-mail conversation with friends.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:37 pm

Should you flex as much as Hirscher? Not needed for regular skiing, Hirscher clearly retracts well below hip level and can still get more than forward enough for the next turn, in GS. He is showing a new level of movement genius that supersedes present techniques. I never try to restrict development of technique and application of technique by a new generation of skiers. Old ways of thinking can hold new, younger athletes back, I let them experiment and thrive, if what they are doing, is a "go faster" technique.

Many coaches used to say about Jean Claude Killy, "He will never win because he falls too often, he lets his skis get too far ahead of his hips between turns". Killy's technique started winning, and it sparked the next generation of technique. We maybe seeing the next Killy in front of our eyes with Hirscher, never discount movement genius; always give it the chance to evolve. The Austrians clearly are not holding him back to old technical standards. Especially because his basic technique is so strong. Don't forget, this guy won the world juniors, both GS and slalom, he was on a WC podium at 18.

What held Killy back at first, was his re-centering or lack of re-centering. You have to remember no one, "in-the-day", had made as obvious a lower body movement, so coaches wanted him to stay forward, to finish the races. Once he figured out how to get forward again, after releasing, he was unstoppable.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:53 pm

If we look at the reality of what happens when retraction is used it
becomes even more clear that it is a necessity. You can only retract
as much as Hirscher if you have a loaded ski with huge forces. He's
not trying to get his hips lower than level or even, he has to do it to get out
of the arc that is described and happening so quickly, he has to react.
This floating point between turns he gets to, isn't a liability, it's the necessity, if he wants
to get ahead of his skis again for the next arc.

Many ski coaches see retraction as a liability because they see their
athletes get into the back seat when they retract. They see this in a
bad turn and they react by saying "You are retracting too much, you
have to move your hips up and forward instead". This totally screws up an
athlete. Now the athlete stops doing what is natural and starts to
incorporate artificial movements to satisfy his coach, rather than
learning how to evolve correctly.

Remember, Hirscher is pulling off these great turns with huge
retraction; time after time and turn after turns. Regular athletes can
do it once or twice and then they often make a big mistake or blow up. So the
coach reacts by saying, "don't retract". This is short sighted, instead, give the athlete
positive adjustments to focus on instead, have him work harder to pull his feet back or
make other fore/aft adjustments to the boots. I find that some coaches often look
for the most direct route to conventional techniques, instead of furthering the athlete's potential.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:18 pm

On my blog, I started a discussion about the "Biggest Mistakes in Skiing".

I'm adding to the discussion here, because the topic of "Retraction" is at the root of the difference between learning PMTS and learning traditional systems.
The naive and those desperate to protect, for their own interest, which is in preserving traditional teaching, will see my points of difference, as minor changes or references to PMTS, and as simply, semantics. They will also try to point out that I renamed and re-badged skills or movements that have been long understood in skiing.

I can assure you that this attempt by traditional instructors and is another smoke screen to confuse their constituency in an attempt to sabotage PMTS, me, and Harb Ski Systems. There was an attempt today to discredit me, PMTS and my ability to ski, through this forum, so obvious it was stupid. It was a snowboard instructor, who works for a teaching and ski instructor training organize that continues to fleece innocent people by pretending to be a valid instructor training organization. They are based in Canada and they operate in New Zealand as well.

More to come.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby grambo » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:16 pm

Many ski coaches see retraction as a liability because they see their
athletes get into the back seat when they retract. They see this in a
bad turn and they react by saying "You are retracting too much, you
have to move your hips up and forward instead". This totally screws up an
athlete. Now the athlete stops doing what is natural and starts to
incorporate artificial movements to satisfy his coach, rather than
learning how to evolve correctly.


^This is the exact feedback I got from a coach today. He suggested the right kind of pole plant, but also advised me to use the pole plant to help extend into the new turn. He also pointed out that I was only moving laterally across the skis and not forward as well, which I understand. If I'm not mistaken, in pmts, getting forward is accomplished by pulling the feet back, but I'm having trouble with this in combination with the flexing. It seems my body gets left behind.

Flexing seems to need to be done but not overdone because then the body gets left behind. In other words, if you flex and absorb all the energy, there won't be any left to get your body to the next turn. I'm definitely having trouble with this. I tried a SLIGHTLY more active extension as the coach suggested and it did seem to hep for a few runs, but then I started having other difficulties.

I've tried using a continuous inside leg flexing to try to get my center of mass into the next turn, but this seems to work counterproductively to holding the inside foot back. The more I flex it, the harder it is to pull back. Also, the focus on the inside foot tipping, flexing, and holding back to assist in achieving a passive outside leg extension seems to cause me trouble in maintaining a strong outside leg. I find it difficult to have a passive extension on the leg that's supposed to be bearing most of the weight.

Any suggestions?

Thx,
Jay
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 pm

Got video, this isn't making sense.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby grambo » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:42 pm

Video was shot, will see if I can get a copy to post.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:37 am

You have to be careful how you interpret my absorbing and flexing movements. I am skiing on a "Double Black Diamond" run, in bumps with powder on top, and skiing fast. So I am absorbing big time. You don't do this on groomers, it would be over kill. Flexing can still be minor and you can get a release. You don't have to flex at the hips to ski aggressive round carved turns. I never think about where (on my body) I flex or absorb when I ski. I use as much absorption, with my body as I need, it's a pressure response situation, rather than a technique.


This may also apply to your release.
Also, it may be your boot set up or the way you finish your arc. If you absorb too much or absorb all of your energy, or you don't finish the arc with a ski bend, you may not have time in transition, to pull your feet back or to hold your feet back. In my turns it does not require a big move or effort to get forward after retracting.

The only way to really tell is to see video.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby cheesehead » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:34 pm

[/quote]I've tried using a continuous inside leg flexing to try to get my center of mass into the next turn, ....[/quote]

As I understand it, "center of mass" is a "non-PMTS" term.

It is a work in progress for me, but what I am trying to do is "flex outside leg, tip the same leg onto the LTE" -- yes my upper body moves in response to that but what causes it is the flex AND the tipping. The upper body doesn't create the tipping. I think it isn't working for you because, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, you have to use your leg muscles actively to tip your lower leg, not just have it happen to you.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby grambo » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:17 pm

h.harb wrote:In my turns it does not require a big move or effort to get forward after retracting.


Interestingly, today we had a different coach at the end who was using a combination of PSIA/PMTS lingo. He said not to use an up movement and to stay low between turns. He mentioned no extension, and I don't remember him going so far as to use the term flexing but he did advocate bringing the hips into the turn in a way that was very similar to PMTS. I can't remember well enough to articulate it, but it was basically another way of describing tipping and flexing to get the hips into the turn.

In reference to your comment above, there was a great deal of discussion on very few people being able to get forward enough. I myself spent most of the day trying to get my upper body moving forward with the turns to get early edge pressure. We were running gs and the coaches were clear in their comments...I need to be more aggressive, which I think was advice given to other group members as well. So, it's interesting to me that you don't have to put too much effort into getting forward since the coaches described this as being difficult even for good racers.

One of the things I noticed from watching lots of video (and I will be trying to get some footage as I don't have any yet) was that even the best group members had a distance between their feet at the height of the turn, which I think limited their tipping angles. A few of us had descent angles at the height of our turns, but the distance between the feet clearly created a limitation with regard to how much tipping and CB could be achieved. After watching your video on youtube of WC turns, it was clear that your legs not having a space between them allowed for greater tipping range and CB and greater edge angles. If I'm not being clear, I'm referring to vertical vs. horizontal separation.

I think this will be something for me to focus on in the future since it seems to separate the good from the great.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby Max_501 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:37 pm

grambo wrote:I myself spent most of the day trying to get my upper body moving forward with the turns to get early edge pressure.


Instead of working on moving the upper body, work on pulling the feet back under your hips.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby Ken » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:59 pm

there was a great deal of discussion on very few people being able to get forward enough. I myself spent most of the day trying to get my upper body moving forward with the turns to get early edge pressure.

Did they tell you how to achieve getting forward? It's tough.

Pulling the feet back is easy and a strong movement. Do it and revel in the comments about how well you're "getting forward."
Rooster today
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:00 pm

There is no "hip forward moving muscle", in the body, the whole concept is idiotic. Pull your feet back and the hips can move across diagonally to get ahead of the boots. Period.

Look up, "concept of relative motion" or at least do a search on this forum for foot pull back.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby grambo » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:11 pm

Thanks all for the feedback. I have been using a combination of movements that seems to be getting me in the right direction. I have been using the feet pullback for sure. For me, if I don't especially concentrate on the inside foot being held back throughout the turn, I tend to develop a lead change.

The main issue I was having, which I seemed to have tackled, is getting too compressed and not being able to get the outside leg long. I know in PMTS there is no active extension, but I was having trouble using the idea of inside leg flexing and tipping to get the outside leg long. I started just focusing on doing my best to make sure my outside leg was long as the turn came to a peak. I wouldn't say I was concentrating on an active pushing to extend, but I did actively think about making sure my leg was long at the peak of the turn so as to not be trying to use muscle to resist the forces. This really helped to get energy out of the ski.
Last edited by grambo on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World Cup, Retraction or flexing to release!

Postby h.harb » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:31 pm

Image

I just copied a perfectly filmed "Verses" version of the Beaver Creek, GS from my Tvo. It was amazing how on that course almost every top racer gave up on "skivoting" because it's slow. Also, the perfect PMTS transitions are obvious. Flex and relax the long outside leg and retract the leg, then tip and bend it to the little toe edge side, and continue. Continue flexing the inside leg to set up the stance side of the body, with counter balance and a stretched outside leg. Increase your counter acting to hold the edge, until the next release brings the whole process back, to start it again for the other side. Can't be more simple than that. Only gets complicated when the PSIA and Epic gang, who have never skied in a World Cup race, try to analyze world cup skiing.

If you slowed down the 2nd place Hirscher run and the Ligety run, look at the movements. There is no PSIA or USSA technique as they describe skiing in those runs. There are perfect PMTS movements everywhere. If you had the chance to watch the groups at our last Blue camp you would see the same movements from many of the groups only slower and with less energy, but all the movements are there.

Ligety is on a roll obviously. He and his people, got to give the boot guys credit, they have finally figured it out for him. His "Head" equipment is the class of the World Cup. Ted is skiing great I have to admit he is the classist GS skier since, Hermann Maier and Michael Von Gruenigen. Ted is playing on his skis, he's so loose using the moves off the tails of his skis to get speed. This shows amazing confidence. He is the only one with full confidence and in perfect balance. When that comes along you have to milk it, because it doesn't always last, remember Carlos Janka last year, where is he now?
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