Skier levels and who is an expert!!

PMTS Forum

Postby Willy » Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:07 pm

The problem Harald is that now you are telling us "you will never be expert skiers". How can we ever become like Tommy Moe, Eric Deslauriers or the other guys you mention if we cannot live in Colorado or Utah or any place with big mountains?

You criticize TTMs for lowering student's expectations or not even asking them for what they would like to achieve by skiing. Now you are doing the opposite. I really do not understand why you started this thread.
Willy
 

Postby jclayton » Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:46 pm

Willy,
maybe you didn't see Haralds last post , I think it answers your questions . Also he does say an Elite Expert has to dominate all mountain skills , Schmidt doesn't carve so well on ice , Eric lacks race points but is borderline etc .. and he doesn't put himself in the top catergory .

We know we'll never play like Tiger Woods but it's great fun trying .
skinut ,among other things
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Postby Mac » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:02 pm

I think we are getting a little carried away here. I think the whole purpose of the Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier series was to give us something to strive for. I didn't go through the younger developmental racing years, never really started skiing seriously till the kids were out of the house and the mortgage was paid off. Am I disappointed with Harald that inspite of reading his books and watching his videos that I'll never be in the same class as Tommy Moe and the other people that were mentioned? Of course not. That would be unreasonable. Am I a better skier for it? You bet I am. Almost all of these famous skiers got their start at an early age with a racing background, and unless you did too, then you've got a lot of catching up to do. I think that Harald has given us the tools to work with, and the rest depends on how much time and effort that we're willing to put into it.
Oh, I've got to stick up for Glenn Plake a little here. I saw him making some pretty impressive round turns on some radical terrain at Tuckermans once.
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Postby milesb » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:35 pm

I actually agree with Harald's rankings. Some (instructors) have criticized him in the past for the naming of his books, perhaps they have a legitimite beef, but I would think that most recreational skiers don't actually think that they can rank wtith the best, ever. It's like we were taught in school, "anyone can grow up to be president", should we not say that because only 1 or 2 people from each generation do become president? :roll:
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Expert movements vs Movements most people make

Postby John Mason » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:47 pm

Willy wrote: The problem Harald is that now you are telling us "you will never be expert skiers". How can we ever become like Tommy Moe, Eric Deslauriers or the other guys you mention if we cannot live in Colorado or Utah or any place with big mountains?

You criticize TTMs for lowering student's expectations or not even asking them for what they would like to achieve by skiing. Now you are doing the opposite. I really do not understand why you started this thread.


I think what the books emphasize is that the road to being an expert has a common movement pattern in how turns are made. These movement patterns are not normally taught. PMTS is an expressway to making these movement patterns your own.

You can follow that road as far as you'd like. But, if your not even on that road, you can't get there.

(though HH will tell you exceptions to this to, people that ski with expert movements but can't describe to others what or how they are doing it - like a demo team member from when HH was on the demo team)
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Not so

Postby John Mason » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:51 pm

Oh my!! wrote:Funny that everywhere john goes he runs into level III folks with "bad" habits.

Aside from formal instruction, I have never skied with nor run into a level III that I am aware, and that spans 3 decades at least.


At the carver camp there were level III and higher certs and they all skied/carvered very well. (higher meaning demo team - and there were 2 of those)

I know I've skied under 2 seasons, but apparently I'm hanging around a lot of good skiers. At the summer camp I was at, PSIA - not PMTS, there were multiple PSIA NW tech team members there. But, level III's don't wear signs, so you could have and not now it, whomever you are.
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Postby belskisfast » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:30 pm

Attempt to classify skiers and you will always hit a raw nerve....lol. I have been told I was an "expert" skier by many people who don't have a clue. I thanked them and went back to working on my somewhat competent skiing. I know at least enough to realize how much I don't know. All classifications other than those determined by a clock are subjective. I'll bet someone on this forum is the best skier with a gut full of Scnapps in the world. I think the point HH is making is that the skills and movements which make up PMTS will enable "Anyone" to ski like an expert within their own limitations of daring, athletics and desire. I feel like I can make a couple of turns or have a run that makes me feel like Bode on any given day....lol. Can I really ski like that? Not a chance. It's like sometimes when you drive the green inches from the cup. Does that make you Tiger...hardly, but if you work at it it happens....once in a while. I have felt the sensation of the pure carve way more often employing PMTS movements than I ever did before. It is likely my skiing is "more expert like" than before. It has not nor will it ever make me like Moe. I used to be a pretty fair Racquetball player....a score or more Trophys and so called "open class" wins....very subjective. I remember when my club had a demo exhibition with Marty Hogan...any long term RB players will know he was Mr. RB in his day....he beat our club pro whom I had never scored more than 5 points on...21 to 3...it used to be 21 to win....GET THIS... IN HIS SOCKS WITH A SHOE FOR A RACQUET!!!!! I witnessed this. It is a matter of fact that any sport at the elite level is barely recognizable by we mere mortals who partake in the same sport for recreation.
HH may have set the bar high for most of us to be classified as expert...whatever....I will still be grinning and skiing and working on my skiing and grinning and knowing that every so often...and more and more often I will be skiing better and more "expert like" than before....and when I can link carved turns in breakable crust through death cookies on a bright Sierra morning, I at least, will feel I have arrived at my zone of expertise.

First tracks to all~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:-}
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Postby jclayton » Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:56 pm

Remember the old truism , the more you know the more you realize how much more there is to know . We can only struggle along the path, we'll never reach the end .
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Election night blues keep me up

Postby Harald » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:53 am

Thank you for your posts. I understand that some skiers are shocked or upset that they didn?t qualify or make or fit expert categories. Some posts I saw showed consternation, from what I can fathom, because self evaluation didn?t produce credentials needed for the expert categories I posted. They did not match the standards set by the skiing skills of world ranked, internationally acclaimed, national champion skiers.

I would not retract or change my rating for marketing purposes or any other reason. This is about honestly and reality. If I have to deceive skiers about their skiing to get customers, I?ll leave the industry. I believe in the ratings I posted, because they are fair and realistic. I am sorry if they offend your understanding of your standings in the ski world.

Wow, where did we all think our skiing ranked before I posted this rating? When did thinking we were expert or close to expert mean more than enjoying the sport? When did I say that skiers should not strive for achieving expert movements at the Blue and Black levels? These are worthwhile goals and they are realistic for the average recreational skier. They are realistic when using PMTS movements.

If I change the names of the rating categories to:

Top level-World class
2nd Best Level- National Class
3rd Level-national Expert
4th Level-regional Expert
5th Level- all round Expert
6th Level-almost an expert

Does that make you feel better? Did you think you were in the same category as skiers like Doug Combs, Chris Davenport or Kim Reichhelm?

What you may not be seeing because of the flying powder around you is that if you ski expert PMTS movements at the Blue terrain level; you are skiing with better technique than the skiers in the milesb video post, the one that Ski Syn posted again, on the other thread.

These are some of the most revered skiers in PSIA. It?s all about how you look at it, is the glass half empty or half full. You can still aspire to become an expert skier on black terrain, which is a higher level than most ski instructors and PSIA trainers and examiners.

Where does this feeling of inadequacy come from? I never mislead you about PMTS and where it can get you. I never mislead anyone about how they ski or where their skiing ranks. It?s not about the ranking it?s about what you are going to do about it.

In my expert 2 book there are clearly defined, self evaluations and graduation standards. Did you achieve them all? If you did, you are ready to become an expert skier. PMTS and the Expert Skier books show you how to achieve the standards at every level to expert skiing. Did you judge the book by its cover?

You do have to be realistic about where world class athletes rank relative to intermediate, advanced skiers or instructors. Maybe you are upset because you are used to being stroked about your skiing by a not too sincere instructor? I would never do that to anyone. I tell skiers where they stand and what to do about getting better. You can always get better. But you may never ski like Chris Davenport.

Did the new listing I proposed above change your skiing ability or joy for skiing? Why so fixated on names. Quality of movement and objective targets are how to further your motivation and ability. Did you really think you could be put in the same category with some of the best skiers in the world?

What this rating does is give a realistic view of the whole world of skiing and put realistic goals in place for skiers. Do you want to make expert movements that we can objectively define at the blue or black level? Do you want to strive for expert movements on black terrain that you can measure and control? These are realistic within the context of PMTS.

You will not find these objective measurable targets in other systems. How can you define the correct blend of rotary and edging? Do you need a little more edging or a little more rotary? Do we need a little more country or a little more rock and roll?

If you are an expert in your mind, you are an expert on the slopes, it works for thousands. Don?t let me be the one to bring reality to your karma. Stroking the student and creating a glorified idea in their minds about their skiing when none of it is actually happening is psycho-therapy. I?m not qualified to teach at that level.
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Postby GuestXX » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:44 am

Very nice. Finally we do have enough experts to satisfy the egos and not to threaten the book?s title.
As a town child I spent all my summers at the farm of my uncle?s. I had contacts with the animals, I witnessed the harvest and could tell barley from oats or rye. Thus I bacame the "official" school class EXPERT in agriculture.
Dis that make me a real expert? Nevetheless, I was taken as one.
Yes, that way anyone can be an expert. That way HH books don?t cheat.
Nice lesson both in marketing strategy and in semantics. Den Hut ab!
OTOH, why should I care? I might be an expert for some but a mere amateur fot others. A racer that is never good enough to make the Austrian national team will be a star in most other countries. A true expert - racer with 69 FIS points - might be not good enough to train with the very best. It all depends on perspective and is a relative evaluation.
I find the whole "am I an expert?" issue quite funny.
Ski the best you can, think about your turns and technique and let the labels be.
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Postby Willy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:39 am

Is Tommy Moe an expert only because he won in the Olympics?
Is Johnny Moseley an expert also only because he won in the Olympics?
Is Ingemar Stenmark an expert also only because of this almost 100 WC wins?

So, if Tommy, Johnny, Ingemar had decided not to race and ski for fun instead, today they would not be considered expert?

Either it is in their genes, then the title of the books should be "Anybody can be an expert skier (if you have got the right genes)" or it is something you achieve by training and working on techniques then the title of the book is about right.

It is not an issue of being world class, not to me at least, it is an issue of achieving what I set out to do. But , it seems to me, somebody now says you cannot be an expert hence you cannot ski here or there but you need to get stuck to the lower level runs, i.e. you are a terminal intermediate.
Scott Schmidt cannot carve a round turn? It is fine with me as long as this does not prevent him from dropping off a huge cliff. Quite honestly, given an option, I'd rather have the ability to dropp off a cliff and not carve a round turn. Round turns do not get the chicks, dropping off cliffs does and plus you could end up on the cover of some magazines.

If we had a slalom race on a 50 degree + slope, I bet that Eric Deslauriers becomes a top racer too... If I thought that to be an expert in skiing you must be a racer then I would have chosen snowboarding. To me being an expert means to ski where few dare to ski. I can enter a WC competition, get last place, and being laughed at. But, if I try following Eric Deslauriers or Doug Coombs or the like of them, I may end up 6 feet under and very quickly. So who is the real expert?

All I am saying is that I am following PMTS because I would like to live my dreams to ski to the limits and not in the sense of speed doing gates or poles, but on very difficult double black terrain. Now, are we saying that double black terrain is only limited to those who have the right genes and that, lacking the right genes, PMTS is useless. I am not that stupid, I realize that PMTS alone will not make me in a WC winner, but can PMTS enable me to ski the most difficult in-bound terrain at least? After all, don't PMTS books say that a solid short-radius turn is the key to conquer the entire mountain? Now it is not enough any more, now we need to be in the WC circuit to ski the whole mountain? This is what is confusing here! It is not the elite or not elite skier thing. Who gives a dime, I do not even watch the WC events....
Willy
 

Postby Willy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:48 am

And by the way, what is an almost expert in HH's last rankings?

It would be more useful to classify skiers on the basis of what runs they can ski. For instance (just an example):

Top Expert skiers: descent from Mt. Everest
Expert: Corbet's Couloir
.....
and so on...

And we need to be clear: is expert status related to the speed with which you can ski a certain run or is it enough if one can just do it without suffering major injuries?
Willy
 

Postby Mr. T » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:19 am

I think Willy's last post is the direction to go. I doubt that most of us got into skiing or into PMTS with a desire to enter the list of a very small group of elite skiers. The main problem is that almost all of us are too old for that. I mean, I am 39 and usually I am among the youngest skiers attending Harald's camps. Genetics or not genetics we are sadly past our prime.

I would find more useful to see a less abstract definition of levels, if we must have rankings. And it seems that Willy's last post is probably more useful, i.e. associating well-known runs with the level required to ski them without getting over one's head or getting injured or worse.

After all, I think that these are the most realistic goals for most of us. Some of us might dream of carving perfect round turns, some would like to spice up their lives with double black runs to remember, some may even be just fine using carvers on paved roads....

And if Harald accepts my suggestion, he can put me in that list as well, at the level he thinks it is appropriate down the ladder. I am hard on myself and do not get offended if he puts me deep down the list. I will prove him wrong! :P In High School theachers told me I was weak in Math. To prove them wrong I ended up getting a Ph.D. Our wills can move mountains. Come on Willy we are both going to drop some big ones someday, hopefully soon for me or I may really be too old.

:wink:
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This is the key

Postby John Mason » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:31 am

Harald wrote:When did I say that skiers should not strive for achieving expert movements at the Blue and Black levels? These are worthwhile goals and they are realistic for the average recreational skier. They are realistic when using PMTS movements.


The books titles are very provocative for many. "Anyone can be an Expert Skier"

Depending on the use of the term this title may never be true for me.

But I view the purpose of the books and the improvement Harald wanted to bring to ski instruction in Harald's quote above.

Being an expert skier in the sense of the book's titles is sking with expert movement patterns. How far and where you want to apply those movement patterns is another question.

Harald, what's the title of the new book going to be?
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Casting Doubts?

Postby Gary Cassara » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:52 am

Ok, without a doubt, PMTS works, anyone been there, done that, KNOWS THAT.
If those of us are afraid to face the shroud of how we see ourselves, too bad...
We are all not World Cup Racers and so be it. Many of us aspire to be better than we are and it takes work. Some willing to commit and some willing to talk about it.

I believe that Harolds point is well taken. Dare I suggest Expert skier in each of our minds is only relative to how WE believe we ski. If you are the instructor and you deal with the upper echelon of skiers, than you truely understand what it takes to be a member of this elite group. Harold set the bar and some people don't like it, does not bother me in the least.
If you want truth, most of us are levels 1-9 and all we may aspire to be is well above that. Those are the kinds of goals that inspire us to be better.

All this hoedee doe boils down to interpretations and not relative to me improving and striving to be that Expert Skier. What is important to me is that Harolds books, tapes, and teaching methods have given me the tools and inspired and challenged me to be that better skier. Now, I enjoy way more of the mountain than I have ever experienced.
Thanks Harold!
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