Skier levels and who is an expert!!

PMTS Forum

Postby skier_j » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:00 am

Willy wrote:What's happening?
---Snip---

Mr. Mason must be the skier in the world with the worst luck. He has met the largest number of level 3 PSIA instructors stemming their turns like they were beginners. I am not here to defend PSIA, but John's bad luck is beyond the laws of probability. I have seen many level 3 PSIA skiers doing very well and resorting to lesser technique when getting outside groomed slopes. Sure, occasionally they may stem a turn, but now it seems that in Mr. Mason's recollections they are all stuck on stem turns. Hard to believe.--- snip---

.


I asked, over on the other board, what the population of L3 instructors was---actually more out of curiosity than anything else, but I can't deny this quote helped motivate the question.

Figures from the year 2000---but most thought they would still hold up rather well.

Approximately 22,000 PSIA instructors of Alpine L 1,2 or 3. Approximately 5,300 are L3.

Interesting part is of the 5,300---3,200 are in the Rocky Mountain division and (while no numbers were given) Northern Intermountain was credited with a high % of L3. For sake of discussion---lets ascribe 1,000 to NI.

We have 1,100 left to go round to the remaining 7 PSIA divisions. How many of these are teaching? How many are certified---but not actively teaching for various reasons?

Divide that by snow sport schools through out the land and how many are there per school?

I have no idea, but I'll guess less than one on average. Many schools won't have a single cert---much less an L3. Some will have multiple L3's---depends on the size and scope of the school.

What is the true likelyhood of casually running into one?

What's the true likelyhood of knowing you ran into one?

I don't have a clue what the answers are.
Whee!
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Postby Willy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:28 am

At my local resort, PSIA level 3 are easy to recognize as their PSIA pins are gold color. PSIA level 2 pins are silver and PSIA level 1 are bronze, instead.

At my resort with 60 ski instructors, 7 are level 3.
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Postby skier_j » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:38 am

I need to reduce the Northern Intermountain number by a bunch. I'm told there are only a few areas included in NI so I need to reduce the number of l3's to say 100. Leaving 2,000 for the rest of the country.
Whee!
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:55 am

To expand on what I said earlier at the risk of sounding corny , it's the journey not the destination ( a truism really , gets mentioned all the time in the movies and even by Warren Miller )

Remember the buzz when you first really carved a turn , skied powder with some control , made 10 bumps in a row etc ... The buzz of actually reaching a goal , acheiving an improvement . I would say it is as exciting for us down the ladder as it is for those at the top . I just showed a young girl how to carve a traverse , her first hour on skis , her face lit up just like Bodies after he won his race .

Looking at skiers higher up the ladder is essential to find the next step or buzz while they are looking for that extra hundredth of a second off or slightly different line between the rocks .


Willy, try travelling at the speeds of the world cup skiers , the risks are just as great if not moreso . Haralds classification is obviously about all round technique , he says Scott is a fabulous big mountain skier but lacks in other areas . This is simply an objective judgment .

HH is not saying double black terrain is limited to elite skiers with racing experience just that these skiers are the best at it . Racing at the highest levels distills technique or should I say the work to arrive there does . If Jonny, Tommy,Ingmar et al had decided to just ski for fun they would not have put the work in to have arrived at where they did so obviously wouldnt be as good .

Maurice Green has the genes to make records . How fast was he before he started training seriously ? It takes sprinters years of hard work , on technique as well , just to run a sub 10 second 100 metres . Maybe he should give up because a cheetah can run it in 3 or less .

Ian Thorpe should give up swimming because a half stunned mullet could lap him twice in 200 m .

If we look at it this way it all becomes pointless . Wake up guys .

Mr T , I,m 52 , I'll only be past my prime when I'm in a box .
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Re: Fitting into your slot

Postby BigE » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:02 am

Harald wrote:BigE

Do you ski and enjoy skiing because of how people categorize your skiing? Do you ski for the personal satisfaction of your turns and the experience of the mountains? Are the sensations of gliding on the snow less important to you than how you are classified? You may want to re-evaluate your motivations. Just because I don?t consider myself in the Elite Expert category, doesn?t mean I stopped trying to get better every season.

If I lower the standards of Expert skiers does that make your skiing different? My motivation is to make every skier the best skier they can be. If that skier can become expert or Black level, great!! If not, they will enjoy the sport with the most efficient movements available at the level that is appropriate for them.

Does the reality of how you fit into my skier rankings destroy your fun for skiing? I?m sorry if it does. I may not be able to make your present level fit into or close to Eric DesLauriers?s level. There is a big difference between a recreational skier(I don?t know how you ski) and an athlete who has pursued the sport their whole life. Does this reality diminish the fun, of the sport?

I often hear the frustration from racers who have to fight hard to make the next level. My answer to them is, skiing at the higher levels is tough, if it were easy, we would have too many World Cup winners.


Harald,

It's not about me at all; my skiing and motivations remain completely unaffected.

It's about the lunacy of promoting a book that screams "Anyone can be an expert skier" which, right or wrong, some people will believe, and then literally shooting yourself in the foot by publishing your list. That's very bad marketting.

Suppose a person did believe that "Anyone can be an expert skier". Then they read your list of experts. What are they to believe now? That through hard work they will one day be experts even though they started at the age of 40?

No, they will believe you lied to them. Then, they will think they were stupid to have believed you in the first place. This is a no-win situation -- are they going to take their kids to the hill?

Worse, you begin questioning the motivation of potential clients, and admonishing them for holding any unreal expectations as if they are the ones at fault for their childish beliefs. This is a situation the you are completely responsible for creating, and admonshing people is surely not a fix.

So, you suggest to make expert green/blue/black skiers; watering down the definition until it is meaningless -- until "Anyone can be an expert skier (of some sort)". That too fixes nothing.

What I do not understand is the necessity for the original post. It will not help anyone ski better. It does not make anyone feel better. It shows a remarkably uncaring attitude towards your clients, which you've underlined over and over again through later posts. You may even lose clients.

The post may have been appropriate had the book series been called something like "PMTS: the path to expert skiing" or "PMTS: Exposing Expert Ski Techniques". As it sits, the list is in stark contrast to the title of the books.

Harald, I believe that you started this thread with the best of intentions, but I cannot see the benefit of creating this classification structure. Nor do I see the benefit of keeping the thread alive.....
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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:13 am

If I lower the standards of Expert skiers does that make your skiing different? My motivation is to make every skier the best skier they can be. If that skier can become expert or Black level, great!! If not, they will enjoy the sport with the most efficient movements available at the level that is appropriate for them..


That's the problem Harald. I want to be a black level skier. I bought your books, your videos, followed this forum, even almost planned to take a camp with you (which on my budget is not an easy thing to get done). I did not expect you to make me the best skier on the mountain, just to help me fulfill my dream, i.e. to ski double black diamond terrain. Listening to your arguments and teachings you led me to believe that if I master a solid short-radius turn I could ski any terrain (within reason, of course). But, now, you come out and tell me that maybe I have to be happy skiing on different terrain or at a different level. In other words, you are telling me that , even if I follow PMTS, I could still end up a terminal intermediate.

Unless, of course, you tell me that to ski a double black run with some style one does not need to be an expert like the names you listed in your original post.. Most of us cannot ski the extreme in Alaska for economic reasons first of all, but now are you telling us that unless it is in our genes we could actually be stuck as terminal intermediates just like it happens so often in PSIA's TTS? That would surely have a bitter taste to swallow.
[/quote]
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Postby Willy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:15 am

BTW the one above was me, Willy. Sorry for not typing my name.
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:16 am

Big E ,
you seem to be getting very upset about what other people might or might not deduce from Haralds comments and how they aren't consistent with the books aims .
The book stands by itself , Harald is a human being who has a right to make comments in his area of expertise . So what , is it not politically correct ?

Michaelangelo got punched in the face for calling other painters crap ( legend says it was the pope , it wasn't ) . When the Sistine Chapel opened everybody said it was another wonder of the world , Raphael stood in awe even though he thought Michaelangelo was a brute .
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Postby Willy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:21 am

Your point Jclayton being? Are you saying that we are like the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel waiting for Harald Harb/Michelangelo "to paint" us? That's fine by me. I am willing to do the waiting. He can punch all the guys he feels like in the meantime. But, I thought that he said that actually some of us are not good enough ceilings to get a good paint on it. It is different, as you can surely appreciate the subtle difference.
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Postby jbotti » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:43 am

Willy, if Harald's comments are making you believe that you will not be able to ski double black diamonds, then you won't be able to. I will echo what Harald said: did you really believe that you would ski like Bode from reading the book? The reason skiers love to ski is because of the challenge, and if it wasn't there you (and everyone else) would not enjoy it. Skiing double blacks is a challenge and that is why you want to master this. The question for posters here has always been how can I get to where I want to go fastest? Which teaching tools will enable me to become the best skier that "I" can become fastest? This should be the only focus. I raced in triathlons for years. In any race there are only 5-10 guys that actually have the genetics to win the race (and I was never one of them). That never stopped me from training harder and trying to post my best personal time.
The name of the game is for all of us to become "the expert skier" that we can become, (and this level will have a variety of gradations over the skier base).
To all that seem to have some issue with Harald's comments, Stop whining and enjoy the process and the challenge of becoming the best skier that you can become (and the bulk of you already do this and live this).
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Postby BigE » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:54 am

jclayton wrote:Big E ,
you seem to be getting very upset about what other people might or might not deduce from Haralds comments and how they aren't consistent with the books aims .
The book stands by itself , Harald is a human being who has a right to make comments in his area of expertise . So what , is it not politically correct ?


I'm trying to explain what should be done for potential damage control.

The list helps no one. I'd get rid of it. But, if you must have a list (and I still cannot fathom why) at least make one with categories obtainable by anyone:

Green, Blue, Black, PMTS Instructor, Elite.

Black = Expert.

At least this SOUNDS obtainable by "Anyone", does not require any sort of 50+ degree first descents or ski competitions, or other certifications to qualify. It nicely seperates those that "live and breath" skiing (the elite) from "Anyone". It places a reasonable commitment on one's time to acheive expert status. How's that for skier retention?

If PSIA folks are offended that PMTS instructor is above expert, then the reason would be that this list is the PMTS list. The instructor is already and expert, but has been certified as able to teach PMTS.

Those that use the books would certainly be happy with being called Experts at the Black level. There is no point in creating a classification scheme that admits 1 of 10,000 to the level of "Expert".
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:00 am

Willy ,
my point was that the book stands as it is , it is an effective tool as you yourself admit . What Harald might say on this forum doesn't affect its impact or value .

In any case I cant see what the fuss is about , we all know we can't ski like Bode . We can however learn from him and others and improve .

Why do YOU ski ?

By the way Michaelangelo got beaten up , not vice versa , for calling a spade a spade .

If Harald wasn't as passionate about his profession he wouldn't have produced such a fine tool .
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:03 am

C'mon guys,
I asked a specific question about pole use and have no bites . This must be something you all have views on . I'm just a poor ole grafter on the lower rungs of the ladder looking for a few nuggets of wisdom .
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:06 am

Grafters unite !!

Lets not accept terminal mediocrity !!
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Postby Harald » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:08 am

Some posters on this thread are totally missing the point and are either not understanding or not reading the posts. I recommend one dose of SCSA treatments and two cups of Ott?s cocktails and you might get some perspective. Chill out men, nobody said you weren?t adequate and that you couldn?t get better. You may want more than what ski technique can give you. How about one of those video games where you?re Connan the Barbarian, slashing up the countryside, that might pick up your spirits? I can?t relate to your anger.
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