Skier levels and who is an expert!!

PMTS Forum

Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:19 am

See, I'm looking for the opposite from most posters, that is, I'm looking to extend my skiing into a more advanced age than I am now at 72, maybe 5-6 years, and I welcome anything that will allow me to do this.

Shaped skis have done a lot, and any technique that will help me do less to get there is welcome. In my sixty years of skiing I had not encountered labels that tried to classify skiers until about 15-20 years ago. And labels shouldn't matter, but when you do classify with labels you take the risk of hurting egos.

....Ott
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Postby milesb » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:33 am

Harald, you may want to reconsider your position on jumping. There are presently 8 alpine events in the olympics. Only 2 (slalom and GS) don't invlove jumps. Jumping has always been a huge part of skiing.
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Postby Harald » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:33 am

But, now, you come out and tell me that maybe I have to be happy skiing on different terrain or at a different level. In other words, you are telling me that, even if I follow PMTS, I could still end up a terminal intermediate.

This statement tells it all about the point of view you are taking. I don?t know where you made this up, where and why you got that impression?

I have never said anything that even comes close to that statement. Don?t put words in my mouth. You have put this on yourself. In fact, everything I write is exactly the opposite of this. If you want to argue your limitations feel free, but take the responsibility for your perspectives, they are not mine.

My post that rated skiers and put up categories is what it is, nothing more. I see nothing wrong with it. You fit where you fit. Use the books and videos to get yourself out of one category and into the next, the information is all there.

The only people who use PMTS and are still terminal intermediates are those that have severe physical disabilities. Even those people are skiing at a higher level than would not be possible with other systems. I have actual cases of severely disabled skiers at the lower levels of intermediate, improving their skiing to Blue expert through PMTS.
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Postby milesb » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:58 am

It's simple, willy. You could probably come very close to making medium radius turns on an soft snow groomed blue run at modest speed as well as an world cup skier. The skiing that Harald demonstrates in the video Ski Syn posted is attainable by just about everyone here, if you do the right movements. You could probably ski 2 feet of powder almost as well as the experts. Now try making short, fully carved turns on an icy 40 degree pitch. I guarantee that the experts Harald described will look nothing like you. Go tear up those double blacks, just don't think that you can be expert on them. Which is fine, nobody will think any less of you. Proficiency is enough.
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Postby tommy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:00 pm

Someone wrote:

It's about the lunacy of promoting a book that screams "Anyone can be an expert skier" which, right or wrong, some people will believe, and then literally shooting yourself in the foot by publishing your list. That's very bad marketting.


My oh my....!

How any grown up, resonably intelligent human being could possibly believe that anyone can become a real *expert* in *anything* only by reading a book is beyond my comprehension....!

I like the book.

I like the title. It's catchy. It's good marketing, in the free world... But as a consumer in the free world I'm used to filter any marketing... So, the real (intelligence) test is to try out for yourself what PMTS can do for *you*...

The techniques presented in the book have improved my skiing a lot. In fact so much, that I'm probably now among the top 97% skiers on my local mountain.... ;-)

But, I do realize that I will never ever become a real expert... for that to occur I'd have to have been born in the mountains, with the right gene pool, and with the motivation to pursue such a career...

Cheers,
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Postby Willy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:14 pm

Harald wrote:
You can come much closer to achieving expert level skiing by using PMTS, but if you don?t have the time dedication and physical ability, you may be very satisfied with being an expert at the blue or black terrain levels.



You wrote this in one of your posts, yesterday. Isn't it a "definition" of a terminal intermediate? What's the point to be an expert on blue terrain level?
Chatting with pretty women on lifts? Either you are an expert or you are not if you are limited to ski where TTS's intermediates are usually found. Time and dedication are fine. It is that this physical ability is a little bit of a surprise after reading your books. Again, I am not searching WC glory, just to ski the whole mountain at my own pace. Is PMTS going to take me there or do I need to be genetically engineered to achieve this not so ambitiuos goal.
It seems an innocent question to me which should require a very simple answer.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:26 pm

>>>>, just to ski the whole mountain at my own pace.<<<<

You don't need any instruction for that, just ski the damned thing, learn by doing. If you venture off the groomed you must already have the basics, just apply them all over.

....Ott
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Postby Mr. T » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:34 pm

Willy... I think that you don't need any blessing to ski the whole mountain. You can try at any time and do the best you can. Of course, the better prepared you are the less risks you take and, I'd say, the more you enjoy the experience. Short-radius turn is the best tool to have in your
tool box. Plus some experience if you find a cornice and you have to jump.
I talked to Glen Plake and Eric Deslauriers (they are my age! solid 1965, baby!) and I am sure they'd tell you the same things. As you want to ski the whole moutain at your own pace, just set out to do it. Start humble and go from there using that tool box we mentioned above and whose brand could very well be PMTS. Mountains are big and there is room for everybody even at the top. And if you are really driven by this dream, try moving to Colorado or Utah like I am desperately trying to do but have not succeeded yet... I wish you to achieve your goal. I believe that will can do a lot, how much it depends how big it is. Cheers.

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Postby Harald » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:39 pm

Thank you Tommy, my sentiments exactly.

Gary, John, Jclayton and milesb, you all expressed the points beautifully and understand the effectiveness of PMTS. I am concerned about the posters who are taking this too literally and negatively. They seem threatened now by where their level of skiing stands.
(Miles, jumping is valid, I am amazed at what they do, but probably that will need a different rating system)

I agree with Ott. I will never stop trying to improve either, because if I continue to work at my skiing, I?ll slide backwards slower. We are all going to have to face our age limitations at some time.

I know one thing though, I will always ski PMTS movements, until I?m one hundred years old, even on black slopes, probably slower than how I ski now, but I?ll be using expert movements. Whether or not I?m an expert skier any longer doesn?t really matter that won?t be my motivation at that point in my skiing or in my life.

I have always been one who wanted to know exactly where I stood in relation to anything I do.

I am honest with myself and I am honest with my clients. They appreciate that. If you don?t like that approach, you may not be ready for our camps or lessons. You have many choices if you decide this is not you cup of tea, there are many other opportunities. If you thought you were going to ski like Tommy Moe from a book, I applaud your optimism.

When I was seriously playing tennis, I could compete with the number four players on most good college teams. I knew I would get blown away by the number one and two players. I also knew that above them were satellite tour players that could kill the college players. Beyond that there were the pros on the big tour. The realization of my situation didn?t deter me from continuing to pursue the next level.

If the confusion on this thread is about the title of a book then we are taking ourselves too seriously. Books are titled to entice the reader to look inside. If you don?t like what is inside don?t buy the book. My books are real and they deal with real skiing situations that help skiers develop to the highest levels of their physical ability. My books allow skiers to become experts at Blue movements rather consistently, which is the foundation of skiing. The rest is up to you. Do you want to and can you take expert Blue movements to the black slopes. This is what we teach at our all mountain camps. If you can make movements the way they are demonstrated and described in the book, you will become an expert black terrain skier.
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Postby Willy » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:42 pm

Thx Ott and Mr. T. I assume that I am on my own.... Mr. T did you ski with Eric and Glen Plake?
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:59 pm

BigE ,
making lists is a human frailty I guess , lots of people do it , it can be fun and instructional . Pidgeonholing people is the same , not to be taken too seriously but can be useful if you are aware of its limitations . Its not dangerous to your health .

I don't see the point of making a list grading skiers and leaving off the top ones . Just to assuage our damaged egos perhaps ?

Any way as SCSA would say " lets make tracks " .

Ott,
maybe there is something with more lubricating qualities than Jagermeister . By the way I assume you know about Glucosamine Sulphate ( with or without Chondroitin , there is some difference of opinion which is best ) ?
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Postby GuestXX » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:04 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:
"In my sixty years of skiing I had not encountered labels that tried to classify skiers until about 15-20 years ago. And labels shouldn't matter, but when you do classify with labels you take the risk of hurting egos."
I wrote earlier today:
"I find the whole "am I an expert?" issue quite funny. Ski the best you can, think about your turns and technique and let the labels be."
Ott, do we feel the foolishness of such labels because we are Europeans :?:
BTW, if you want to have real comparisons, go into racing. You have time difference there, ranking lists and FIS points.
If you want to ski and be a skier, ski and don?t think about labels.
Want to get some examples of relativity?
Isn?t ski jumping part of skiing as well as crosscountry? Has anybody ever seen the champions mentioned take part in a jumping contest or a 50-km crosscountry race? Surely no. Are they complete ski experts not mastering two historically basic events?
You may come and set the criteria of an expert but who desides they are THE criteria? If Tommy Moe?s time loss in a 50-km crosscountry race is more than ... and if he doesn?t jump 120 meters when the winner gets 130, he?s not a world class expert skier for me.
Ad absurdum? Maybe. But why not? Isn?t there some logic? Aren?t we defining a ski expert?
I really don?t understand the need to be labeled. If you want to have the feedback get a video of yourself. It will tell you uncompromisingly but give you no artificial labels.
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Postby Mr. T » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:11 pm

No, Willy, I never skied with Eric Deslauriers or Glen Plake. I met Glen at a local ski shop here in Minnesota and we talked a little. He is much shorter than I thought once you "subtract" his hair!

I talked to Eric last year when I was considering whether to attend one of his camps or not. Unfortunately, I live in Minnesota and my vacation time is really just 10 days, 12 if I push. I went to the Big Sky PMTS camp instead which was a lot of fun. We skied quiet a bit of black terrain and some double black. I am not an expert by any means, but I never ventured on a double black run before that camp. So it was a considerable step in the right direction. You can follow it too.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:12 pm

>>>>Ott,
maybe there is something with more lubricating qualities than Jagermeister . By the way I assume you know about Glucosamine Sulphate ( with or without Chondroitin , there is some difference of opinion which is best ) ?<<<<

Well, I don't take any pills or other medication, never have and I'm not about to start. I went to a doctor for the first time in 15 years because my medical coverage may change next year and had blood and urin tests and a complete physical and he told me that everything is normal, my blood pressure and colesterol (sp?) and he gave me a flu shot which I never had before and told me to come back to see him in another 15 years unless something ailes me, then I should come before.

I was kind of peeved that he called me normal, I always thought I was better than that <big grin> also no trace of Jaegermeister in my urin...

You know, I'm just enjoying the hell out of life, it's great!

....Ott
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Postby jclayton » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:52 pm

Ott,
Glucosamine Sulphate is a naturally occurring substance from shellfish , it is the only thing recognised to assist the regeneration of sinovial fluids in the joints . Its less harmful than salt and there it can be used forever , it doesn't build up in the body . I've been using it for years now and feel the difference in the ole knees . ( too many Karate kicks and too much running on hard pavement ) . Look it up , " age challenged " athletes swear by it .
Good luck
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