confused on what to buy first

[Erik]

Fundamentally, your question was where to start. The place to start is to look at videos Harald has posted on line, and videos by PMTS skiers in the Movement Analysis section, and ask yourself if you would like to ski like that. If you want to ski like that, it won't come from a few tips to pick up to incorporate into your everyday skiing. It will take a lot of work to wire all these new movements together.

I would recommend getting the Essentials book to really understand the PMTS terminology regarding the primary movements. If you like the elegant skiing you see in the online videos, Essentials will really help you understand how all the different Primary Movements are complementary and what a beautiful system PMTS is, through incorporating such a thorough biomechanical understanding. In order to incorporate PMTS into your skiing, I would recommend you follow the progressions in Expert Skier 1, then 2. Essentials will really help you understand what you are working toward through Expert Skier 1 and 2.

One of the most important things that will come out of starting with Expert Skier 1 is to understand the importance of proper alignment and bootfitting. You will see an immediate benefit in your skiing from being properly aligned. If you really want to incorporate PMTS into your skiing, you will benefit immensely from lateral boots, which might not be what you are using now. A fitting from a PMTS bootfitter is a game changer.

Sometimes you just have to get away from the gang and practice on your own.
- Skip a run with them to work on a few drills.
- Work on a few drills during part of the run where terrain and traffic will allow.
- Have a list with you of some things you want to work on every time out - even when you are free skiing.

When you really feel the difference that PMTS makes, and you really understand the movements, you will start to become passionate about doing drills.

Switching back and forth from PMTS to the way you are used to skiing will slow the rate at which you incorporate PMTS into your skiing. Going to a PMTS camp is the best way to take a "time out" to start to rebuild your skiing.

If you look at the Movement Analysis section of the forum, you will see examples of real PMTS skiers posting their video for commentary. You will see a wide range of skill levels. Not a whole lot of skiing posted there which is not groomed. In part, that is because the skills (and flaws) which translate into the ability (or limitations) for skiing off-piste are all there to see on the groomers. And PMTS skiers know that the place to fix those flaws is on the groomers before those skills can translate into bumps, powder, off-piste.

Erik

[MonsterMan]

I don't want to get this started and then, as said, not keep up with friends who are playing around, running all over the mountain.

Let me make it simple for you.

It seems you have two options.

1. Commit to the best teaching system available and ski in control over the whole mountain in a short time and impress your friends.

2. Don't.

Option two is ok. Make sure you use twin tipped skis though, they should skid really well both ways. No need to tune them either, how good is that!

If you choose option 1, " ' got video?"; post a couple of turns and you might just be lucky enough to get some online coaching from some great skiers.

Good luck with this very difficult decision.

[arothafel]

Again, just my point being, do you ever get to a point where you have the movements down enough where you can show up to a mountain and just go skiing? Where are the videos of people using PMTS on difficult terrain, off piste, etc? (besides Harb)

Here’s the point you should consider. This forum is sort of like a University for those who want to improve their skiing. Period.

Typical video is posted for skill and body-movement analysis and to gain feedback for further skills development. We don’t post stuff to get our egos stroked. There are plenty of sites for that.

So, your question is sort of like going to the faculty at Harvard and saying:

“Gee, I just want to drink beer and chase girls.. but it seems like all you guys want to do is learn things.”

If you just hang in there, your skiing will improve regardless of whether you want to be in the park, running gates or jumping off cliffs.

But take note from those of us, including me, who have spent years upon years of dead-end movements only to discover there was a guy Harb who had it "dialed-in" a long time ago.

You’re young. You should definitely take advantage of what PMTS has to offer you, NOW. In a very short period of time your friends will wonder how you improved so much.

And to answer your quoted question... Heck yes... we go out and have fun. It's not all drills all the time. But, the more you do them, the more fun you have when free skiing.

[Max_501]

There are some pictures of off-piste skiing here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2715

[polecat]

... I mean, with the other style systems did you guys just do their drills all day long? ....

Yeah,
pizza,
french fries,
pizza,
french fries,
pizza,
french fries,
pizza,
french fries,
.
.
.
.



Seriously, mass market ski instruction doesn't even have drills, just "hints and tips." Which is only one of many reasons it doesn't work.

just sounds like no one shows up to a mountain and just goes skiing....

Go skiing? Wow! I never thought of that.

Yes, we talk about drills a lot. Thanks to PMTS, it's a common ground that everybody can relate to. We may ski in different places with different skill levels, but everybody who's done them shares some level of understanding about how they feel and what they do.

It's easier to build and hour of productive conversation out of a few minutes of drills than from hours of free skiing. Don't confuse the amount of time spent discussing drills with the amount of time spent doing them.

...I don't want to get this started and then, as said, not keep up with friends who are playing around, running all over the mountain....

Remember that PMTS's roots are in World Cup and Olympic racing. Eventually, you just might find yourself standing around waiting for your non-PMTS trained friends to catch up. (I know I have.) You might even find yourself doing drills while you're waiting. (Done that too.)

... Where are all your awesome PMTS runs coming down a black, off piste, in the bumps, etc?

I don't have any. I still suck in bumps. But I'm better than I was before (which was really, really bad). And I know I'd still be as bad as I was if I hadn't found PMTS. I also know that some day I'll be a lot better. At least now I know I have a path that will get me there.



pc.

[ToddW]

just sounds like no one shows up to a mountain and just goes skiing.

Of course we do. But there are some caveats:

• a few deliberate warm-up runs focusing on each of the essentials will make your day so much better.
• you may find that you start to like drills. they're structured skiing challenges much like running gates, terrain parks, and bumps.
• on most days, it pays to do a few hours of careful drills. The payoff is that "just skiing" feels so much better when you've progressed to a higher level of performance.
• cat tracks, flats, etc. are an opportunity to focus on refined balance and edging. Again, it helps you when you're "just skiing."
• deiberate, deep practice with regularity is needed to maintain high level peformance in any athletic activity, the same as playing a musical instrument at a professional level.
• when you're first learning, it is best not to mix drills and "just skiing" because they are like oil and water until you have replaced your old skiing muscle memory with efficient pmts, i.e. race-derived, movements. Once you find yourself using PMTS movements to dodge unexpected obstacles/rampaging snowboarders, then you're ready to mix drills and skiing.

The bottom line is that PMTS provides the best possible training path to high level skiing. And it provides large gains for those of us who are not naturally athletic as well as for the naturally athletic skier. But, as with most worthwhile accomplishments, it requires effort and sacrifice to achieve this end. You can have plenty of fun on the mountain without striving to achieve high level skiing ... or you can have 10x the fun if you make the sacrifice. It's your choice.

PS I was out in Colorado last weekend for a bootfitting with Harb Ski Systems. Being recently recovered from a 3-week illness, I mostly stuck to doing the on-snow alignment and some drills to avoid pushing too hard. Towards the end, I cut loose on autopilot mode "just skiing" a few times. The pay-off from locking in the drills with my new boots was immense. I've never achieved that level of performance and ecstasy on autopilot before. A week later, one of those runs is still playing over and over again in my mind arc by delicious arc. That's why I do the drills.

[HighAngles]

Impetuous youth...

I know that the young rarely learn from preaching from the old guys, but if you read this maybe it'll make you think a bit.

I regret all the years of skiing that I feel I "lost" due to a lack of skiing skills. All the ski trips I took over the years where if my skiing was at a higher level I could have explored more difficult terrain. All the wasted time trying to improve from a tip here and a suggestion there.

You are lucky. You are young and there is now a system available to you that will provide the means to accomplish huge gains in your skiing skills as long as you put in the effort. Every day you ski without PMTS is another day that will further ingrain dead-end movements. It's a lot harder to reverse years of wrong than to start out with the right.

Sometimes you have to work hard to play hard. Suck it up and reap the rewards.

[jbotti]

Uavmx, you have the whIole forum going out of their way to help you. I have even possibly wasted my time responding to you. Your first post looked legit, but now I smell a troll. If I am wrong, that's OK, i remember being wrong once in 1978, and it obviously didn't kill me.

So these are the lines that I just read that sound ominoulsy like someone coming over from Epic with an agenda:

"Where are the videos of people using PMTS on difficult terrain, off piste, etc? (besides Harb)"

"As has been stated before, "yeah, but who else can do it besides harb" well? Where are all your awesome PMTS runs coming down a black, off piste, in the bumps, etc?"

Dude, you are a troll!! Go back to where you came. I am done wasting my time with you!!

[milesb]

jbotti, I don't think he's a troll, he has asked me to ski with him. He is just coming from a different place than most here.
And be realistic, not everyone is going to be as fanatical about this stuff as most of us. We talk about getting as much as we can from Harb's teaching, but even a lesser amount still has alot of value. I'll be the first to admit that I don't spend whole runs doing drills, unless I'm skiing with slow skiers or at the Mammoth video things. And even if all he ends up doing is lift and tip on easy groomers, well that's worthwhile, right?

[HeluvaSkier]

Who else? I can.

Those who you think only spend their time doing drills will surprise you when it comes to real all-mountain skiing.

You can walk away from here with the attitude that "those guys only do drills that Harald prescribes and can't actually ski", but you'd be very wrong. I'm sure there are others, but I'm happy to prove it to you if you need additional clarification. Apply the movements to your skiing or don't, but it is your decision. Questioning those who have had success with PMTS however, is rude IMO because success and improvement is relative, and you should have respect for anyone who is truly looking to improve and doing so...

If you really do it though, you will have success. Good luck. Report back with video.

[uavmx]

WOW, I bring some concern over making the switch to this system that I'VE NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE, and WATCH OUT!! Sorry, but because you guys have been lucky enough to find it, ski it, and believe in it, doesn't mean someone thats coming out of the dark is going to jump into it 1000% like you do. When have I ever been on the slopes watching people ski this way, or talking about it. NEVER. I came across it while trying to research some ski's to buy this season. It seems to be the snow-roots movement (get it, grassroots) So blame me for being a bit skeptical.

Thank you to all who posted very enthusiastic posts. I really see that you guys are passionate about PMTS and thats great. I appreciate all the great posts. And those were the answers I was looking for. I love the Harvard analogy and thats why I even prefixed it with saying I know this site is made for this. But when are you ever on the slopes seeing people ski this way, or talking about it. Thanks for the link to your photos max, thats some great terrain.

I plan on making the jump, and thats why I sought out MIles and Arathofel to look for some local guys to maybe help. And yes, the original intent of this post was to figure out what book to buy first, to get me started this season, and I have still gotten both sides of the spectrum. I have watched all the youtube videos, and read far into the archives on here. Maybe I'll just go ahead and buy the Essentials and Expert Book 1.


And to the guy who think's I'm a Troll... again I PREFIXED my statement. What I said there is what I HAVE READ HARB AS SAYING. I bet if you went over to EPIC, and questioned their training methods and they jumped on you like you did to I, you'd think they were all @ssholes wouldn't you? So I'm just going to act like it never happened.

[uavmx]

I'm not trying to doubt your all mountain prowess....just wanted to know that you guys do actually get out and free ride, all mountain, keep up (or beat) your friends. I was just getting the feeling that people hang out on the bunny slopes all day. Again, of course it seems that way because this is the purpose of this forum.

so, I BELIEVE YOU, PUT DOWN YOUR PITCH FORKS. Didn't expect such a heated response, which again, I respect that, shows how passionate you are about the system. I bet harb will tear up

[MonsterMan]

I bet harb will tear up

Mr. Harb to you son.

[Max_501]

To progress to advance/expert levels in many sports requires the use of drills. This is not PMTS specific.

Tennis = lots of drills
Soccer = lots of drills
Football = lots of drills
Basketball = lots of drills
and so on...

Drills are one of the tools used for building the myelin needed to become an expert.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2539

[h.harb]

Heres a question though, it seems like everyone is ALWAYS drilling, like thats all you do....anyone actually go ski for the fun of skiing after you start learning PMTS?? I'm young, I like hitting jumps, parks, playing around. But I do want to be able to steeper, off piste skiing. Is this going to wreck my skiing so bad, starting all over from scratch, that I'm going to feel like an idiot on the bunny slope all season? I still want to be able to enjoy the season, not just drill!!!

One of the reasons I am bringing out my free skiing DVD, (ready in a week) is to demonstrate how to keep "improving" while enjoying free skiing. In our system, all mountain camp, is where folks ski all mountain terrain. Blue camps are designed for learning speed control and turns that will allow skiers to go to the all mountain stuff. Skiers over 50 don't take kindly to crashing, the body doesn't take those hits as well as it did when you were 30. So it's only natural skiers who aren't as young anymore don't want to dive into terrain over their heads. We bring them along gradually, so they can have fun while staying safe on tough terrain.

Most PMTS skiers ski more than they drill. This is a technical forum, so discussion is often about what makes your skiing better. And skiing is about personal motivation. I enjoy working on my skiing on blue terrain, then I go up and ski on black terrain. I don't want to do it all day long. I still work on perfecting my turns, so my technique holds up on the challenging stuff. Many skiers come to our camps hoping to become proficient on groomers, after they become confident, any off piste is a bonus.

There are many motivations in skiing, one is to feel the movements and perfect turns. Another is this: "I like hitting jumps, parks, playing around. But I do want to be able to steeper, off piste skiing". This poster has his motivation, it's one of many. It doesn't mean everyone should have this one, it's just one of many.

I know I don't have that motivation for my skiing. But I'm not going to tell anyone who has; that they should learn to ski better first. Someday they might come to that realization on their own.