Figure "8" turns

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Figure "8" turns

Postby jclayton » Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:15 am

Harald ,
now you're posting again I'm dead "curious " about those figure "8" turns you mentioned .
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A dynamic turn path

Postby John Mason » Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:26 am

You have the S curve path of the body, the S curve path of the skis. When your turn is created by the body being into the turn before the turn exists, these two paths will be out of sync and trace figure 8's. A normal release and SP style turn typically creates these two paths.
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Postby jclayton » Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:08 pm

John ,
Harald mentioned these turns on the thread about foot initiation and CM etc... . He said they were to do with early counteracting movements started early in the turn , a high level racers turn given the name "figure 8 " by the Austrian coach Fritz Vallant . The forms you mention would be parallel wave forms of different amplitude .
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Postby Hobbit » Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:44 pm

Jclayton,
Let me take a stub at it.
Normally, when you switch edges during the transition your skis are going perpendicular to the fall line.
Now consider what happens if your skis continue to go up the hill and the CM keeps going down the hill.
You kind of loose the balance intentionally for a brief moment and then you switch edges and catch-up.
Of course this is easy to say but not easy to do.
One of the expert skiers in the carvers camp mentioned that you would experience similar sensations when you are skiing through a half-pipe or a gulch.
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Postby jclayton » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:22 pm

Hobbit,
That doesn't sound like a racers turn , it would be slowing down too much by going back uphill . Unless it is a drill with later refined shortened movements .
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clarification

Postby John Mason » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:47 pm

I was repeating the definition given to me by HH at the carver camp.

These curves are not parallel but cross when the body moves over the path of the skis. Lack of commitment to the turn - ie not allowing the body to fall into the new turn, then the skis "catch up and catch the falling skier" will result in non-figure 8 turns.
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Postby Hobbit » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:03 pm

Yes, I was not disputing John's definitiion, but trying to give an example of the turm execution.
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I'm good at regurgitation

Postby John Mason » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:46 pm

(I'm good at regurgitation - the question is, how am I at execution)

:wink:
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Postby jclayton » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:00 pm

I understand what you are saying , it is basically what Thomas Grandi is doing in some of his practice runs in video 1 as far as I can see. What is confusing me a bit is Haralds reference to reversing the hip in anticipation of the turn , I'm just trying to get the sequence of events right in order to get the whole picture .
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Postby Harald » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:29 am

First, I never use hip anticipation to describe counter acting movements, that's a PSIA term, too confusing. I wrote this and posted it some time ago. Slight counter at the end of a turn while skis are still on edge, neutral or square when the skis are flat through the release, and slightly or moving toward countering movements as the skis engage for the new turn. Counteracting movements for the new turn are reversing the hip on the uphill side, leading with the hip on the inside of the new turn.

Figure 8

The Figure 8 turn is a conceptual turn to give racers the idea of how late and early they should be carving arcs. Even if it sounds like the turns are finishing up hill that is the idea of the exercise. No one really travels back up the hill. Tremendous speed, control and transitions can be learned form this figure 8 concept. The key point is to understand the (figure 8) is laid on its side across the slope. The skier skis up into the previous track and crosses it to start another turn, crossing the lower bottom loop of the previous turn.

The reference for finishing turns, stay strongly engaged to head back up hill at the end and change edges as the skis hit the peak of the up hill momentum. If you can?t carry speed out of your arc or can?t make clean arcs you will bog down at the end. The very good skiers can accomplish this turn.

The idea is to finish and cross the body to the other side of the skis while the skis carve back up hill. The more important part is to changes edges before the up hill peak is achieved to gain a head start on the High C. The return into the falline occurs with carving on the new edges. Racers need to begin turns very high in the High C.

If you watch good snowboarders they over lap the releasing and engaging edges. The figure 8 is the same idea. The skis actually engage as the body is below the new engaging edges. If you visualize this for a series of turns you could see how a loop is made at the extremities of lateral travel. The bottom of the loop or bottom of the turn finish intersects the old line from below (coming back up the slope). The middle or releasing point or track of the last turn is the start of the next loop inside the previous finish loop.

This is a turn that is used when the course has very round turns and is rhythmical. These turns fit and match the shape of the skis. The Bode?s skidding turns are out of the ski?s shape range, too far across the slope; therefore skidding is needed to avoid instant hook up.

If you try drawing some laid on their side figure 8's you might get a better idea of the strategy for this approach.
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Postby jclayton » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:39 pm

So the effect is almost as if the skier doesn't actually move down the slope , just skis across , intersecting each turn at the same point making a figure 8 or continuous loop .

What about the pole plant , I imagine it is still to initiate the release of the feet and is the up and forward movement of the poling arm important for this technique .

I guess either a Super Phantom or Weighted Release could be used .
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Postby Jeff Markham » Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:52 pm

Harald wrote:Even if it sounds like the turns are finishing up hill that is the idea of the exercise. No one really travels back up the hill.
<snip>
The skier skis up into the previous track and crosses it to start another turn, crossing the lower bottom loop of the previous turn.


I'm still having a hard time visualizing this one. If no one really travels back up the hill, then how can the skier ski up into the previous track? :?

I've been drawing figure-8's, but don't see now to ski that way. If I plot the path of my skis versus the path of my upper body, then what I get are a series of alternating "crescent moons" laid out point to point.

Harald, can you help?
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Postby jclayton » Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:27 am

Jeff,
I think the correct line skied would be S's but flattened much more laterally or stretched across the hill instead of the usually skied S's with little side hill component .

Also the rebound or pop would be delayed somewhat meaning the upperbody I imagine would not travel ( its movement across the skis )directly toward the fall line but at a more oblique angle ( towards the side of the hill )

The figure 8 I think just refers to the ski's path , the impression is of a figure 8 to the skier but the reality is of those sideways stretched S's . Remember the shape of the beak of the dodo , arcs across the slope with a knob on the end . A wierd image but it's what just came to mind .

I think I am reaching a visualisation , now to try it out . Any one have any objections to my images ?
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Path of figure 8 turns

Postby SkierSynergy » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:04 pm

Here is the general look of a series of figure 8 turns. They would probably not have a flat looking traverse, but it's easier to draw; and you might not have any/much overlap to begin with, but once you get better they look more like stretched out eights. The idea is to be going back up the hill when the edge changes. That way you have to carve over an exaggerated upper part of the C.


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Postby Jeff Markham » Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:15 pm

Thanks, Jay! So you *do* travel up the hill in these turns. I understand now.
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