Eski's " Phantom Move "

[jclayton]

In Skiing magazine March/April 1998 Eric and Rob Deslauriers describe and demonstrate a perfect Super Phantom Move , emphasing the passive tipping of the free foot to engage the stance foot .

They say by using this method you can carve the top of the turn .. "the key to skiing crud " .

As John Mason says these are guys with credentials .

[John Mason]

yeah - but what do they know

Eski is also a coach at the Epic events. We've probably gotten him in trouble since they may not have realized what he teaches is PMTS.

[Ott Gangl]

Just curious, John. Why can't/shouldn't Eski teach PMTS at an Epicski Academy camp? The Epicski Academy does not hold to any particular ski teaching method. Matter of fact that is a good place to make students familiar with all kind of ways to ski, some of this, some of that.

....Ott

[John Mason]

It was just a reasoned conclusion since on Epic people are quite hostile to any mention of PMTS.

I beleive Eski also typically takes the most "extreme" group so they will probably happiliy have him coach even if they don't agree with his non-rotarian approach.

(is this part of the reason he takes the group he does?)

[milesb]

John there were two PMTS certified instructors at the 1st academy.

[Ott Gangl]

John, I think Eski didn't write just another PMTS book and they would rightfully resent you or anyone else suggesting such. If they wanted to teach PMTS they just could have used Harb's books as text. They teach their idea of good skiing, at all levels I might add, and for someone to belittle their stuff by suggesting they copt the' phantom move' from the PMTS manual because of an aknowledgement in the back of their book, is a sham.

And you have been told a thousand times that there is NO resentment toward PMTS, the resentment is because of the rederick that is directed against the many thousands of instructors who labor daily to instruct the masses and if tomorrow the edict would come down that PMTS is the way to teach they would sweat in the trenches teaching just that.

I had to change from the Austrian up-unweighting to the French down-unweighting to no-unweighting to lateral movement. So what? It's no big deal.

But were someone to accuse Harald Harb of being a charlatan who got kicked out of the demo team because he couldn't conform and in return demonizes all and everything that is PSIA, you guys would go through the roof.

Yet when thousands of PSIA instructors go through the roof because they are accused of fooling the public because they can't ski much less teach, you just say "They don't understand".

Let's leave the attacks alone and concentrate on how we can enjoy skiing more.

....Ott

[Harald]

Ott, why do you continually post false hoods and make statements about me, when you have never met me or know me. You don't know where or how Eric and Rob picked up the Phantom Move or their teaching ideas? I do, I trained them on numerous occasions. I'm not saying they don't have their own ideas, they do and many good ones, but we worked together for a number of years, and I showed them my whole system, after I wrote my book.

I have never attacked or singled out anyone on this or any oher forum on a personal level. I will address wrong concepts and respond to individuals. Yet it seems to be fine for you and others to do it to me. Lack of ethical behavior causes the division between people and organizations. You are furthering that behavior, I though you were above it.

I have constantly and continually said that the PSIA ski instructor has no choice what they teach. I never blamed them for the poor quality of instruction. I say they don't teach well and the results are obvious, but I put that blame on PSIA, its leaders and its examiners. I don't balme instructor as individuals.

As far as this lement about hard working, laboring, poor ski instructors, give me a break. I know what they do and how they work. Most stand at line up and get lessons handed out. Usually between 9 and 10 in the morning. They teach until 4. Come on Ott I know you have seen real work at some point in your life. You aren't going to tell me that ski instruction is real work, laboring fingers to the bone type work.

[jclayton]

Hey Ott ,
give SCSA a ring and see if he's got some pills left over they might mix with a Manhattan . Pity I'm over here in Mallorca I would prescribe you one of my mean Dry Martinis made up by the bottle ( Tanqueray) and kept in the freezer , none of that " shaken or stirred " nonsense, ice doesn't get near it . A twist of the best Valencian lemon skin to produce one drop of lemon skin oil and you're away . Improves yodelling ( not to mention Wedeln ) skills immediately .

[Ott Gangl]

>>>But were someone to accuse Harald Harb of being a charlatan <<<

Exactly, Harald. I don't accuse you of the above and neither have I heard anyone else doing it because it isn't the truth, that's why I put in the 'WERE SOMEONE TO ACCUSE' just to show how rederick like that can get everybody's hackles up, yet I have read you and many others here calling the ski instructors out there incapable, uninformed and instructing a way that hurts the students. And they shouldn't get their hackles up?

And that is exactly why I'll repeat my last line of my last post.

>>>>Let's leave the attacks alone and concentrate on how we can enjoy skiing more.<<<<

If both sides could leave the snide remarks about the other aside and not run down each other like Bush and Kerry are doing then we could talk about skiing and we could learn something.

....Ott

[Bluey]

Skiing is fun .......but guy/gals, the "bickering" in these recent threads gets boring.....do we have to keep going over the same old dirty linen.......

IMHO I think most people want to talk about technique etc.....maybe we should do a Poll about who wants to talk about PSIA, other ski instructors/ski book authors etc.......if we stick to the known facts and leave aside the conjecture I'm sure we can steer these threads back into calmer and more user friendlier waters.....

As an aside....... my recommendaton is to use Bombay Blue Sapphire as the necessary ingredient to the perfect martini........

Cheers....

Bluey.....

[Guest]

What OTT wrote is in red: This post was sent in response to John.

John, I think Eski didn't write just another PMTS book and they would rightfully resent you or anyone else suggesting such. If they wanted to teach PMTS they just could have used Harb's books as text.
John never said anything of the sort. Why do you insist that John says things he doesn?t? Anyway Eric has every right to use my materials as I gave him full permission. Just as I gave Lito the right to use Phantom Edging. Eric may use some of my work and add some of his own, I?m not concerned. What John is trying to point out is that Eric in principle agrees and teaches similar movements as PMTS. He doesn?t lean toward the PSIA's ?most important tool in skiing? Leg rotation, steering and guiding.

They teach their idea of good skiing, at all levels I might add, and for someone to belittle their stuff by suggesting they copied the' phantom move' from the PMTS manual because of an acknowledgement in the back of their book, is a sham.
Ott, Eric and Rob are friends of mine. Are you saying that because Eric and Rob might have had access to PMTS info or used some PMTS approaches that to state that openly is belittling to them? I know they had access to all PMTS materials, because I personally trained and skied with Rob and Eric at their father?s ski area in Vermont. I taught them Direct Parallel and I trained their ski school.

To say there is PMTS in Eric and Rob's book, if anything, it empowers them. They have the nerve to stand and say, yes we agree with PMTS on several counts. He isn?t trying to hide that. Rob, Eric and I agree on most fundamental skiing movements, so why wouldn?t Eric?s book have close ties to PMTS? Many of our ideas were similar right from our first meeting. I skied with Rob and Eric many times, why would it not be logical that some of my/our stuff is demonstrated in their book. Why are you so paranoid? I am honored that Eric and Rob support good ski teaching and acknowledge me for helping their plan. Although we are from different backgrounds, we always agreed on the skiing fundamentals. I don?t agree with PSIA skiing fundamentals (just in case you didn?t know that)


And you have been told a thousand times that there is NO resentment toward PMTS, the resentment is because of the rhetoric that is directed against the many thousands of instructors who labor daily to instruct the masses and if tomorrow the edict would come down that PMTS is the way to teach they would sweat in the trenches teaching just that.

I doubt ski instructors are sweating the trenches Ott. But if they are, I feel bad for them as they could be working 9 to 5 in an office in New York City.

Now if a customer of ski instruction says that ski lessons are useless, why are you not listening? Why are you arguing with them? Most of the posts on PMTS are not from instructors, they are your customers, my customers or potential customers, more accurately they are your (PSIA?s) former customers.

My business model is to listen to my clients and give them what they want. If my customers were saying what they are saying about ski instruction from what I read in the forums, I would not argue with them, I would change my system and the quality of my lessons. None of my PMTS clients have ever returned to PSIA lessons after they experienced PMTS.

I had to change from the Austrian up-unweighting to the French down-unweighting to no-unweighting to lateral movement. So what? It's no big deal.

So why do you constantly support and follow the PSIA if it is no big deal to change? Customers are telling you it doesn?t work. Ott, you and your friends treat these people with scorn on the forums. You are defending your system and your instructors in light of the fact that there is a growing body of customers and general awareness that clearly supports PMTS. They are making posts in an extremely informed and educated way. They state clearly that they have found a better way to learn skiing and how to ski. And they are telling you the difference between the two ways is huge. I can understand that when I first said that in my book, all you instructors got up in arms and said Harald just wants to market himself and his business. You and many others said, PMTS is just the same old stuff you used to do and it doesn?t work. But now that there are thousands of skiers experiencing the huge difference I wrote about in my book, I don't need this combative attitude between PSIA and PMTS. I am fine with their part of skiing. We are happy with our growth, support and following. There needs to be a ski instruction body for the masses, PSIA fulfills that need. I would just do it differently.

But were someone to accuse Harald Harb of being a charlatan who got kicked out of the demo team because he couldn't conform and in return demonizes all and everything that is PSIA, you guys would go through the roof.

Ott, that has been done many times and I'm sure you have read it, as it has been forwarded to me from threads you participated in. Don?t worry I don?t hold a grudge; I am not even annoyed, I think it is great, I?d love to be known as getting kicked off the demo team, because it motivates me. I have good reasons to have caused consternation on the Demo Team and with the PSIA. I stand behind those reasons today and am even more convinced than ever that I am right. Surprise!!

There are few people in the world that influence me. The ones that do are people who are really powerful and knowledgeable. I didn?t notice such an individual in the ski teaching world stand out in the years after my book was published. The opposition to me or PMTS was not convincing or threatening, so I?m not angry or upset; I just lost respect for many people, most don?t know there beans and constantly try to promote wrong ski teaching techniques and concepts. Notice they don?t use movements; they use concepts, as wrong movements are too easy to expose.

I hang with people I think are positive and want to contribute to solving problems, not people who have excuses and defend invalid and debilitating theories. Every year I have more wonderful and intelligent skiers to ski and hang with, thank you folks.

Yet when thousands of PSIA instructors go through the roof because they are accused of fooling the public because they can't ski much less teach, you just say "They don't understand".

Ott, John and jclayton, and piggyslayer, and Ski Syn and hobbit etc, etc are skiers, not instructors, they are telling you and the rest of the instructors what they like and don?t. Again, I ask, why are you not listening? Why do you constantly tell them they are wrong? This problem you are noticing, is just the beginning, it?s not going away, just getting worst. Why are they (PSIA) not doing something about it, I am. PMTS is a new ski system, instructors teach it, and skiers participate in it. PSIA and PMTS are similar organizations. PSIA is huge, PMTS is small. The PMTS skier is intelligent and informed, you are hearing from them.

Let's leave the attacks alone and concentrate on how we can enjoy skiing more.

I hope you won?t look at this as an attack. I?m not attacking you, I?m trying to help you understand there is a strong movement of skiers toward more effective lessons than what PSIA can provide. I?m asking you to give people credit for what they know and have experienced. The skiers that are posting on PMTS are not professional instructors, they don?t have training in ski teaching, but they do have PMTS coaching.

Judging by the posts they are as well or more informed about efficient skiing movements, then people in the PSIA system. They also know what to use and what to focus on. They can also do movement analysis at a very high level. They are not fooled by poor ski turns. They are very critical of ski turns that are passed off as good skiing but don?t live up to their standards. They have every right to do this; they are paying for their skiing and skiing improvement.

I love to empower skiers. I love to work with skiers who want to evaluate themselves and know how to judge their skiing against the best skiing. I also know that our skiers know what they don?t want.

Right now you are hearing from the handful of supporters who believe in PMTS and their progress with PMTS. There are thousands of others on our customer list, but they are less vocal. The list is growing.

We have a PMTS unit beginning in the east this year and we have one in the North West, we are already in Central. We have PMTS schools and camps, offered by licensed people in Canada, Holland and Australia. I?m not in a hurry. We believe in motivated people and developing them into very good instructors, one at a time. We believe in working with motivated skiers and giving them everything they need and want. The business model is working. Some want to work toward the future; others want to defend the past. I do what creates rapid progress for skiers using the latest information, knowledge and equipment, even if we have to develop it ourselves.

[Harald]

Sorry, the above is my post. I don't have a working password, so I forgot and didn't type my name. Peter has promised to fix my password problem.

We had a great day today doing alignment analysis at Loveland. Our footbed and alignment technicians were studying changes in alignment. We did traversing, one footed balance with canting installed to screw up their balance, for alignment recognition practice. We also played a little hooky, by inserting some free ski runs.

HH

[Ott Gangl]

That's quite a post, Harald. What probably set me off was John's presumption that Eric would get in trouble if he taught PMTS in an Epicski clinic, as if not all coaches are interested in improving the skiing of their students.

What I was saying is that Eric and Rob have standing in the skiing community of their own and don't need to be attached to anyone or anything else to have credibility.

So some of the posters here are happy with having learned with PMTS, great, but there are thousands who learned to ski in all different ways, not just from PSIA trained instructors and are very happy with the results.

You say:>>>So why do you constantly support and follow the PSIA if it is no big deal to change? Customers are telling you it doesn?t work.<<<<

You don't really believe that? You have not seen good and even great skiers who gained their instructions from other than PMTS? Come on.

>>>>Ott, John and jclayton, and piggyslayer, and Ski Syn and hobbit etc, etc are skiers, not instructors, they are telling you and the rest of the instructors what they like and don?t.<<<<

Good enough. Both sides, PMTS and PSIA could easily co-exist, if it weren't for this constant bickering. Ski instructing is a business, PMTS is a newer player and is competing for bodies. You have every right to tout the superiority of your system, and sadly, to run down the comptition.

And also sadly, so has PSIA. If everyone would advertise their merits and not comment on the competition, you would each get the clients that fit your systems.

Many, if not most of the PSIA ski schools clients are the classes of ten to twenty skiers, often with rental boots and rental skis who want to get a taste of the thing called skiing.

Many, if not most of the PMTS clients are well to do, they can afford their own equipment, to get aligned, to go to camps or at least afford more than the $15 one-hour group lesson and most importantly, they want to seriously explore skiing.

But what of the rest of the folks? They get their lessons as part of packages either in schools or with a ski club, they have no idea if the lesson they get is a good one or not, but 97% of instructors I know want to give a good lesson in the constraints of overcrowding, inadequate equipment , often inapropirate terrain and very short timespan and they don't have the option of walking away if any of the above doesn't suit them.

Admittedly, I don't know how you will address those groups arriving in busses who want to have PMTS lessons, you may have planned for that.

By the way, there are many things about PMTS that I like and have incorporated in my skiing and it was not because you were knocking PSIA but because those movements make sense. I am still learning and try to keep up as things change. And they change, again and again.

I also have no animosity against anyone here, I am on this board because I rather like the bunch over here.

....Ott

[Harald]

Thanks Ott, I agree, let?s turn down the attacks on individuals and try not to over react to affronts that set us off. Maybe we should write our ideas, let them sit for a few hours, reread them and then post. Or we could call SCSA and ask for anger management advice. He can no longer be singled out as the only one that has gone off on the forums.

I?m sure even if you may not agree; there are some on the other forums that will be challenged if they have to do the opposite movements then what they have engrained from their skiing careers in PSIA. When Eric does Phantom Move type exercises with them without emphasis on deliberate leg steering, they will have a revelation. I know one thing, if those that are hesitant and don?t want to face PMTS as a different way to ski, do give it a serious chance, they will end up skiing better.

[Ott Gangl]

OK, Harald, this outbreak by me is really uncharacteristic for me because I'm mostly layed back but as you can imagine, every once in a while circumstances come together and then things happen.

Yes, I've tried and incorporated your phantom move in my bag of moves ever since I bought your first book, at this time I actually don't know what release I use, and you are right that there are many leftovers from previous systems. I made it a point to go through all the maneuvers in your book , found them fine but challenged the usefulness of direct parallel to beginners in crowded urban small ski areqs as we have here in Ohio and Michigan, not because it couldn't/shouldn't be taught, but with thousands of beginners and novices crowding the bottom of all the slopes, classes 20-25 apart so that there is barely room to make a turn without imidiately making another in the opposite direction.

It would be nice if there were room to make a traverse or garland and turns into the hill from a traverse and all the other maneuvers to sneak someone into their first downhill turn. As you know, individual instructors who have a private during the day when it is uncrowded and who have a student who is receptive move them along to a parallel turn in the first lesson.

Many places, like Aspen, are pushing direct to parallel though they may go about it different than you.

When unpleasant posts happen here or at epic it is usually directed at PSIA from here, but since you are synanomous with PMTS they are often directed at you since PMTS and HH are used interchangably many time.

Since you read epicski why don't you chime in over there and though you may encounter some sarcasm, if the posts are civil those sarcasms will go away.

My perception, and that's all it is, is that your approach to skiing and teaching comes from a racer's approach and PSIA comes from a recreational skiers approach. Willy Schaeffler once told me at a meeting when PSIA was created that the American Teaching Method was taking into account that the middle aged overweight unathletic housewife was going to be our average customer.

He wasn't that far off, what he meant was that we here in the USA had to get away from the elitist, almost arrogant view of the European, mainly Austrian and French view that skiing was only for the wealthy, the beautiful and the talented.

Things sure have changed....

I promisre to be civil from now on, and Jaegermeister with a Red Bull chaser wouldnt be so bad <grin>

You are 54 and I am 18 years older, so when you are my age I'll be 90 and hopefully still skiing.

...Ott