Footbed - which one ?

PMTS Forum

Postby wolverineNorb » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:39 pm

First off : How bout them Wolverines coming back to win in 3 OT over Michigan St. That being said and out of the way, Harald : You are right about getting quizzical looks from ski shops regarding lateral versus rotary boots. Only one ski shop in the Bay area, in Berkeley, no less even understands the concept. I see your point regarding the issue of not being rigid versus soft, but soft/rigid in relation to what the foot/ankle needs to make instantaneous the transmission of energy from body to ski. MilesB and John Mason : thank you for your tips. I appreciate the information. Even after 35 years of skiing its obvious that it's never too late to learn something new.
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Alignment

Postby Harald » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:28 pm

Wolverine,

There are numerous footbed and alignment systems out in the ski shop world. There are also many that have disappeared and failed, because they didn?t make a positive difference, some make things worst.

Common Footbeds and Alignment:
I may not know them all, but of the ones I do know, there are few that do anything to enhance balance, edging or alignment of the foot and ankle. They do fill in the space under your foot. This can severely hinder foot and ankle articulation, as most of this filler material is hard and non flexible. I can prove that some of the most popular best know footbed systems or alignment systems actually impede the foot and ankle from achieving balance and co-contraction. Co-contraction of the subtalar joint is not incorporated in any footbeds we see coming into our alignment center.

Eduaction:
If you are interested and want a demonstration, make an appointment with one of our alignment technicians. The evaluation includes every measurement, it takes forty-five minutes and only costs $75.00. If you do decide to purchase a footbed or have your boots aligned, the $75.00 is applied to that work. Afterward, you will know everything about your body, up to your hips, including movement capability, your skiing movements and equipment needs. From this assessment you will be able to make informed decisions about boots, footbeds, and alignment. If you think someone else can do the job, we don?t mind. We just hope knowledge and information will help you to better results on snow and help you spend your money wisely. We will have Harb Skier Alignment technicians in the northeast this season. Please check our web site for details.


Harb System:
I am not trying to promote or market our system here. I am trying to inform skiers that they can spend money more wisely. In most cases the off the shelf inserts available in super markets are better than the custom footbed products we find in ski boots coming through our shops. I often advise skiers to use of the rack products, average price $30.00, if they can?t get to a credible foot bed system.

Result speak!
My system doesn?t need marketing. Our product sells itself. Our clients tell others and the word spreads. We work with hundreds of racers from all the major race programs, including the US Ski Team. US Ski Team coaches and US Ski Team suppliers, boot reps, refer their athletes to the Harb Skier Alignment Center. Every Western Junior Olympic and almost every Far Western winner last season was skiing on our alignment system, footbeds and boot work. The successes of our systems are measured by results, not belief systems and promotion.



Race Proven:
There is a current US Ski team coach that has seen the results of our system first hand. He brought some of his athletes to our alignment center. By the way, this is a familiar scenario. We reconstructed the whole boot, from the boot board up. The next two days the athletes raced in FIS races in which, they improved their ranking and standing by huge amounts.

Those that understand FIS points know that 0 or no points denote the best racers. Lowering points is the goal. As a racer lowers his points the real estate gets very expensive and intense. In a general description of how the system works, you could say that for every second you are behind the winner, you are assessed between five to eight points, depending on the length of the course.

The racers in this example lowered their points by twenty, in the race following the alignment changes. One of these racers actually went from fifty points to thirty points in two races. This demonstrates a direct correlation to the alignment and foot bed changes made the day before the races. These racers were mature individuals and athletes that already had years of training and racing behind them.

Systems to avoid:
I recently received a card in the mail promoting another system of wedging or angling the foot, inside the boot with full length anglement shims or strips. This has been tried before without success. I have seen this recent program and I researched it more extensively, since I received the card. You can draw your own conclusions, but here are some details.

This system is trying to have ski shops buy into their program. I know they will be successful in selling their system. I know it because that?s the way mass production ski shops operate. You will be able to get this system in the future. It looks very high tech because it uses digital read outs and has a fancy measurement base.

If you want to be an intelligent consumer and (or an instructor who wants to advise skiers knowledgbily) someone who really studies and researches before you buy, you will already see the red flags on such a system. They tout that it takes a shop employee only two hours of training to do alignment with this system. It will change your boot fit and the angle of your foot in the boot. It will still require outside the boot alignment. The ankle will either absorb the angled shim or it will force your shin to one side of the boot. In most cases it will lock the foot in the wrong direct. This method does nothing to enhance ankle and foot eversion or co-contraction. In combination with a rigid footbed, this system will lead to contrived skier movements.


Education and training:
In our footbed and alignment training the technicians are in a course for six days, ten hours a day. Our Harb technicians study and have to pass written tests on the materials they learn in the course, which are: anatomy, joint measuring, bio-mechanics, and ski related movements, based on alignment on snow. Our technicians do six hours of the weekly course on snow, training and evaluating skier movements based on every combination of footbeds, boots and alignment.

Do you want a shop employee making ?in the boot canting changes, inside your ski boot? based on two hours of training?

What is a proper set up?
The follow up question is, "What does this do to your footbed?"

?Alignment should not and can not be done correctly inside the ski boot.?

"A footbed is not boot alignment; it should be a support and balancing enhancement device."

Accommodations inside the ski boot should achieve a balanced foot, a supported but dynamic (moveable) foot situation, so that co-contraction of the subtalar joint is functional. This is all achieved by a proper footbed. If you have a proper footbed to begin with, there is no need to angle the foot inside the boot with alignment shims.


The real story only becomes obvious to skiers as well as technicians, after they study or take the time to be informed about the lower body?s anatomy, kinesiology and bio-mechanics.

Bottom Line on snow performance:
A well designed complete system really demonstrates its benefits after you incorporate them into your capability for ski movements. Then you see and notice the liabilities of taking the short cuts offered through available systems in the industry. In our Harb Ski Systems program we ski with ninety percent of our footbed and alignment clients.

I personally watch video of racers and skiers if the actual on snow time is not available. I encourage our clients to bring video of themselves sking. When did you get a ski lesson as part of an alignment session?

When was the last time your boot fitter of footbed maker knew how you skied or saw what his work accomplished? We do almost in every situation. Our customers lead us to the evolution of our alignment system, because we see them and we tweak our system when needed to improve skiing and comfort results for our customers.
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The Balance Shim System

Postby John Mason (not logged in » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:49 pm

Harald wrote:

Systems to avoid:
I recently received a card in the mail promoting another system of wedging or angling the foot, inside the boot with full length anglement shims or strips. This has been tried before without success. I have seen this recent program and I researched it more extensively, since I received the card. You can draw your own conclusions, but here are some details.

This system is trying to have ski shops buy into their program. I know they will be successful in selling their system. I know it because that?s the way mass production ski shops operate. You will be able to get this system in the future. It looks very high tech because it uses digital read outs and has a fancy measurement base.


I had this done to my boots Summer 2003 shortly after the system had come out. It works by the technician feeling the tendons of the foot and how much they are firing while you stand on one foot balancing on this measurement contraption. It was interesting. As they turn the dials, there is a narrow point where the tendon firing stops and your neutrally balanced on the one foot. (you do this standing on your foot bed).

Then they put your boot on the balancing device with a center buble level on the bottom of the boot. With this they measure the amount of "non-level" at the bottom of the boot. In my Lange boot cases the two boots were off in their bottoms from each other by 3 degrees.

The math for the shim subtracts the two readings then they put in the shim.

In my case, they put in the shims under my foot bed. I went off to ski and couldn't get my boot on. In the right foot, they had not put the shim in correctly and it had folded in half under the foot. I had to go back for them to correct.

Bottom line was, they were a vast improvement over having no alignment. I would say they moved me from 0 to about 60%. This is probably better than people that just make footbeds and send you on your way as their is at least some attempt to "find neutral" in an objective sense.

The one ski balance drills that I could not do at all in one direction became much easier in both directions the very next day.

A few months later I had the whole aligntment process done with HH and I got my other 40 percent. While the balance shim system helped, it still was a "mass produced" weak substitute for the real deal. After working with Harold the one ski drills much easier still. Swithing to a lateral boot in my case, made an immediate difference in stability on bumpy terrain.
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Postby Harald » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:57 pm

John, sixty percent of not much, is still not enough to get the motor revving. This inside the boot shim approach is just another step along the long, rocky, wrong road that my customers describeas what almost killed their interest in skiing.

When the real set up is available the first time out, and it works, why waste time and money on charlatans trying to make a quick buck.

Canting inside the boot is not only wrong, it is ridicules. Only skiers and instructors that don?t know where real skiing is realized will endorse this system.

All it achieves is more knee drive and ski tail releases. Of course, this may be acceptable if you are used to ?girlie man? skiing taught in most ski lessons. I am not in any way being derogative to women with this statement, as I don?t think they should be taught girlie skiing any more than men should. This whole ?ski like a girl? movement is an insult to women who aspire to higher levels of skiing. It says it?s OK to ski wimpy if you?re a girl. I have a women, as you know, in my life that is insulted by such attitudes and excuses for low performance.
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Yes-buy once - it's cheaper

Postby John Mason » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:33 pm

I didn't mention, that shim setup was my 2nd attempt to get a decent footbed in my boot. HH's was the 3rd in one year. It would of been much better/cheaper to just start with HH or one if his trained fitters.

Sarah Richardson at Atomic Race Camp this summer told me she doesn't let anyone touch her boots but HH or (then she named someone in Aspen that was trained by Harald but I don't remember the name).

I was up at a ski store (a realskiers advertiser) in Chicago this weekend. They do some boot fitting up here, but stop at the point where the boot would need modified itself. They use canting strips that go under the bindings. They can go up to 3 degrees this way. Of course, the downside is if your trying out different skis in a season or own a bunch of different skis, this approach is less flexible. At least they are trying to measure angles and correct for them. They use a ski deck to then check the alignment.

My first footbed fitting did not even attempt to correct for any angles. Their "vacumn" unweighted approach was highly recommended and did help add a feel of support that was a small step in the right direction, but unless you get your own angles dialed out and corrected, what is the point. This was at a well respected store/footbed source in Mammoth.

So, 3 tries to get it right for me. If you can, go with a HH auth fitter the first time.
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Postby Hobbit » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:37 pm

Hey John,
Three strikes and you are out :D
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Postby milesb » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:49 pm

John's post is why I haven't bothered with custom footbeds or alignment.
John, just curious, when you had the previous work done, were you confident it was done right?
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miles - you may be one of the lucky ones

Postby John Mason » Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:15 pm

You may be lucky. In my case, my feet are a bit of a mess. I have planar faschia (or it sounds like that anyway) and recently got footbeds of the medical variety for my street shoes that have eliminated my years of chronic back pain.

My alignment is different for each leg. On the one ski balance drills I could do them somewhat in one direction but not at all in the other direction. This was a clue to me that alignment might be an issue.

Footbeds in order and what changed:

1. Footloose sports in Mammoth - basic footbed, no alignment compensation of any kind. I would get sore feet from just the pressure on my feet in the boots, these eliminated this. I felt much more connected to my skis. Before there was a line of pressure that was not comfortable at all.
2. The balance shims. I was having a time of the one ski balance drills at Atomic Race Camp on Mt Hood last summer. One direction was somewhat doable, the other direction was impossible. They had Racer's Edge from Breckenridge renting a little "summer" spot behind the main rental shop at Mt Hood and did an evening presentation on the balance shims. Had them done. They made a big difference. I could do the balance drills in both directions now. Before this balancing alignment my skies were always trying to cross their tips. After this, the skis were much more neutral. Skiing became much easier.
3. I had entry level Lange boots (not total entry level, I think they were 70's). They were rotary. The skis wanted to change direction slightly in bumpy terrain. My son and I tried to get "first turns" Oct 15th 2003 and flew out. Loveland and A-basin had melted. So to make the best out of a messed up schedule, we got better boots and the full alignment with HH and Diana.

Next time on the slopes the balance drills were easy in both directions. I was centered laterally over either ski. The boot was as comfortable as a slipper. Now, Dan's boot was still a bit of a problem and we are still working on that. Alignment is great, but Dan's feet are more like a duck than a duck. We may have to switch to the new insert Head boot to get enough difference between the narrow heel and very wide toe box. But, the tendancy for Dan to get his tips crossed dissapeared. Dan also had the shims done at race camp, but also preferred the alignment Diana did for him.

In both of our cases the bottoms of our boots have been ground to change the whole angle of the boot and we have new bases.

My brother in law that I taught to ski, may be like you. He looks very well aligned in any old rental boot and has no problem with one ski balance drills. But if your deformed like the other 80% of us, a proper boot alignment works wonders.

Saturday I was playing on a ski deck skiing with one foot with either leg. I can't even imagine doing this on either of my two prior setups.

Harald has some statistics on what percent of the population is off which way vs what percent doesn't need "glasses". Alignment is like whering glasses or contacts. Most of us need them. But that doesn't mean everyone does. My eyes stink, my alignment stinks. Mother, what did you do to me!
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Postby milesb » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:47 pm

John, I think you missed my point. I have no idea if I could benefit from footbeds and alignment, and I could see the process being a big waste of time and money. Harald's system of indoor and on snow obsevation DOES seem most promising, but it's unlikely I'll be in Colorado anytime soon. The point is, if you go to someone else next year and see even more improvement, does that mean that Harb is incompetent? How would you know if it is done right?
Just as an aside, what I did do was have an area of my right boot stretched out to fit my 2nd toe, bought a superfeet universal fit footbed. I snug the powerstrap tight inside the plastic cuff, and have all the buckles on the loosest notch. This gives me lots of room inside to roll my foot from BTE to LTE, while maintaining a good grip on my lower leg. I also moved the forward lean to fully upright, I may have to adjust that somewhat. Unfortunately, they are older rotary boots, so if I do flex them, the skis wash out . So I adjusted the flex to make them as stiff as possible, and try to avoid flexing them when I ski.
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Alignment issues

Postby Harald » Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:05 pm

Great analogy John, most people who wear glasses can see something without them. Most skiers who ski with lack of a proper footbed and alignment can still ski. Those that know what skiing is when all is right are really enjoying their skiing and improving their performance dramatically. If I could only have our customers tell you how it felt when they discovered proper fitting ski boots and proper alignment.

In 1996, I was invited to present my conclusions from my alignment experience and its effectiveness to the World Skiing body at Interski (meeting of all ski instruction federations world wide). Four years later I presented my alignment process to the International Congress of Skiing and Science (University professors researching the science of skiing from all over the world). I have studied, tested and tried every approach that has come down the road. Some are minimally effective, some don?t do anything, some make things worst. Why take the risk?


We do have statistics and data from over two thousand alignment customers. We have data as to how many skiers are knock kneed or bowlegged. We have data on how footbeds help and change intermediate recreational skiers into black level all mountain skiers. Yes, it is an integrated program with PMTS movements, boots , footbeds and alignment, but that?s the right way to do it. Does it take longer than your normal trip to the ski shop? Yes. Is it worth it for your skiing and your knee joint health, especially if you plan to make it a life long sport? Absolutely. A good pair of ski boots should last for ten years, if you ski thirty days a year, it is worth the effort to do it right.

We also have data on which knee is most likely to be injured, the more knocked kneed one or the bowlegged one? We will be presenting this data at the next International Congress of Skiing and Science in 1008, in St Christoph, Tirol, Austria. From our initial compilation of data the weaker leg is the knock kneed leg, most skiers who have ACL reconstructions have them on the weaker leg first. If this data shows that the stronger leg (straighter aligned leg) is the least likely to be injured and we know how to align the weaker leg, to make the same or as strong, why wouldn?t ever skier not want to be aligned?

The reasons for alignment go beyond improving your skiing. They include saving your knees. I have an arthritic knee. I know what it feels like when I don?t tune the alignment. It hurts because it rotates further when it is un-aligned. When I align my knee I have less knee pain and swelling. Countless clients who have knee pain tell me the same thing. One final note, proper boot alignment is not done and should not be done with alignment shims inside the ski boot. A properly made footbed should be under your foot. The alignment or canting is done outside the boot with the boots on your feet. Thirty years in this business, coaching and skiing with the best skiers in the world and with thousands of recreational skiers, have proved that to them and to me.
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In theory

Postby John Mason » Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:53 pm

milesb wrote:The point is, if you go to someone else next year and see even more improvement, does that mean that Harb is incompetent? How would you know if it is done right?


In theory I suppose I could go on forever. You have to at some point trust the skilled observer plus how it feels to you. Everytime I'm in HH's shoppe he has people from all over the country. He does alignments for people from some of the highest levels of skiing.

Part of alignment - at least HH's alignment - is certainly the on-slope assesment. I had the advantage of skiing multiple times and a beginner skier like me I'm sure is a tricker skier to observe and check alignment. In anycase, whatever initial alignment you have on the stand in the shop, it's the way the whole skier - the whole kenetic chain is reacting under skilled observant eyes that tweak the alignment. I had 2 minor adjustments based on the on-slope analysis on my alignment over 4 months. I'm quite happy with what I have now. My only fear is that my boots will wear out! :)

Anyway - sounds like your skiing with a "scotch tape" approach (you recognize the rotary boot issue but rig them up as stiff as possible to avoid the flex and resulting twist). You don't live next door to skiing either.

My skiing budget, being from Indiana yet skiing out west about 60 days a year, is quite high. Spending what I did on an expertly done alignment is cheap in my case and well worth the return on investment. Just the switch from an obvious rotary boot to a lateral one is a big change.

A great way to get it done, so your not spending the travel money on just the alignment is sign up for a 3 day all mountain camp. They'll sort you into groups and the top group will challenge most anyone. They do alignments in the evening, check it on slope the next day. It's a great way to get all the adjustments you need by the end of the camp.
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Postby milesb » Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:08 am

Actually, I live about 45 minutes from some really great skiing.
a couple pics here http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2574605093&congratulation_page=Y.
Unfortunately for me, finances are such that new boots and alignment are out of the question for awhile.
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me too! - not!

Postby John Mason » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:54 pm

Miles - so Mammoth is your "big outing", but you have some good local resources.

Which state has the most ski resorts?

Answer - not Indiana

I live 2.5 hours to 3 hours away from Perfect North - which is actually quite south and little.

or

2.5 to 3 hours away from Paoli Peaks, which is about 1/2 the size of perfect north and not a "peak" in sight.

I guess there is actually a 3rd "ski resort" in Indiana near valprasio. I believe it is literally 150 feet of vertical.

I guess this is why I normally just fly to Denver.

The answer to the trivia question is NY with 50 ski resorts.
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Postby milesb » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:12 am

No, I have a pass to Mammoth for weekends, but like to go locally on weekdays.
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