Bode on Steering

[Curious]

http://www.skiracing.com/news/news_disp ... 905/ALPINE

Anyone else have control issues and the need to bleed off some speed? The reigning 2004 Overall World Cup GS winner shares what he does.


I am truly saddened how many honestly think active redirection of the skis should not appear in one's skiing. It's absurd. I have NEVER had the opportunity to ski with anyone who was able to ski purely carved - except on the easiest green/blues.

Just know where to apply it in the turn sequence. Can't ski without it.

[John Mason]

How does bode do his steering? What are the ways to create rotation?

If you rotate at the hips as was recently advocated elsewhere, or just point the feet the new direction, in what manner is the body still in balance over the skis? How are the new rotation forces created by such direct methods of steering dealt with?

Is there a way to create rotation as needed without either pointing the skis the new direction, or with gross hip rotation that leaves the body in a position to deal with these forces?

This red herring argument that PMTS has no rotation just ignores how rotation is created in PMTS.

The second absolutly useless argument that PMTS is only useful for pure carved turns also keeps coming up.

If you don't get it yet, just read Eski's book, since you obviously dislike HH's approach and continually misrepresent it. For those not familiar with who this is, Eski who posts on Epic and is an Epic coach. He and his brother wrote the book "Ski the Whole Mountain". A PMTS style approach is taught as the method for controlling the skis and body position for all maner of turns covered in the book. The idea that PMTS is limited in it's application is shown to be mythology in that book. If people don't think it's PMTS that is taught in that book, just check out his appendix. Nothing contradictory here at all, even hop turns are done with PMTS movement patterns. How can that be? Can PMTS have hop turns? If you have to ask that then your commenting on a system you don't understand.

I'm sure you can ask him as he coaches at many events you're probably at if you still don't get it.

Expert movements for expert skiers. What is the expert movement? What are the expert movements experts use? Those are all provacative questions. What movement patterns are best to use in what situations?

Ask the opposite. What are movements to avoid? What movements detract from expert skiing? Skiing both directions at once comes to mind. Skiiing without a release causes that. All this focus on active rotary is the heart of what produces skiing errors such skiing both directions at once.

The heart of PMTS revolves around these two thinking patterns. Active steering by the hips or by pointing the feet into the new direction are not a tool that is a main component of the PMTS toolbox. Movements that create and manage tipping are. Anit-rotarians, well no - not really, or yes really, depending on the context. How are rotary or forces that make the skis turn created?

[Hobbit]

Hi Curious,

I am definitely not an expert in interpreting the race runs especially on the WC level. I don?t know what your credentials are but this is my disclaimer.

On the subject of your post, Bode says himself in the article you are referring to that he has the problem with not enough edge on his right foot and this is his excuse for skidding. He also clearly says that he picks up speed on the ?clean? carved left foot turn. I believe that he would prefer to have both sides carved but he can?t do this due to the problems with his right foot.

So what is your point here?

[Dumbfounded!!]

Hobbit,

I see a pattern here, John reads the same way you do. By picking out only the words that you like and discarding the rest as extraneous.

Is that the first tenet of PMTS?

I also like how "curious" has posted something by one who we are told should be a GREAT spokesperson of this genre---a highly skiller racer. And the thing you ask is what are curious's credentials.

Is this NOT the gist of many many folks challenging JM? What, exactly, are his---and your credentials that allow me to filter what you can bring to the discussion?


Now listen up. Bode did sya he has a problem with edges on one side----BUT THAT IS NOT ALL he said. He said, (and I paraphrase) that to make "clean" turns in both directions gets you going way to fast for most courses and as a result, a scarve, slip, --- call it what you would like---has to take place somewhere to slow down and STAY IN THE COURSE---.

That was actually quite clear if you bother to actually read what is written.

His, (Bode's), preferred method is to use this bodily imbalance to his advantage. by skidding turns in one direction only---unless the course calls for something different.

I'm sure we could arrange for Bode to ski with John and you so that you can show him the error of his ways.

[found as dumb]

not so curious - and certainly dumb

People - bode - or whoever, can ski and do whatever they want. Like the post I referenced from Phil - US ski team coach - inclination is the primary way to affect turn shape. Does this mean a racer or a skier never does direct rotation?

Your arguing no point. It's like saying PMTS has a wedge because they teach it's ok as an LMD. What do you want as the primary way to make your skis turn? Are you really saying to use direct rotation of the skis to turn the skis?

It's what it sounds like your promoting. To pick out an aspect where direct rotation is used and then imply that makes it ok as a general approach to skiing, is where we disagree. But you probably agree with that anyway. Your arguing against the wind. Or, not. Maybe you do think direct leg steering is the "primary" movement.

PMTS emphasises those movement that affect inclination as opposed to directly steering the skis.

But, if you want WC opinion, then as was recently posted to me on the other board, just keep taking lessons from the WC people like I'm already doing and ignore the people with the ski instructor mentality that don't have a clue.

Are you a ski instructor mentality person - or a person with WC background? Do you see a difference? Is the ski instructor mentality superior to WC skiers view of things? Are ski instructors better skiers? Are ski instructors better at communicating things to beginners and intermediates than WC skiers?

Let me put this in context.

Recently I have received two contradictary pieces of advice. Both parties know I'm a new skier. One advised, keep taking from the people with true WC background. The other advised that people with WC background have no business instructing skiers.

Any guesses as to which parties gave which advice?

Both are well respected posters on Epic.

Any guesses as to which advice I'm taking?

Sorry for the username. Unidentified posts are inherently prone to being non-civil.

John Mason

[Hobbit]

Dear big_cheese,

I did not ask anyone's credentials and made my disclaimer. It appears you can not comprehend a simple sentence in writing.

I just asked a polite question and got no answer. I don't think the original question is related to PMTS.

To carve or not to carve that is a question

I think that you need to move this discussion to Epic where it belongs.

Best regards

[Rusty Guy]

John,

The internet is a tough place to discuss these issues. Heck, it's difficult to get folks to agree on the term "hips".

I'm going to take a stab at something knowing full well it may fail. I'm also going to try and keep it very short.

Conceptually I really like the idea of primary movements. I agree wholeheartedly that these movements ideally begin in the foot.

I am of the opinion, and this is key, that any tipping movement of the foot, inversion or eversion involves other foot movements. Those other foot movements are planter/dorsi flexion and lateral or medial rotation.

If you agree then rotation of the foot is a primary movement. As these movements become more dynamic they transfer up the kinetic chain to the femur and the top of the femur.....or hip.

I guess I for one, may have come to the wrong conclusion. I may have come to the conclusion PMTS proponents are opposed to any lateral rotation of the inside leg. I don't know how you would suggest any tipping movements can occur without feet rotating or femurs rotating.

[John Mason]

I think what PMTS is opposed to is initiating rotation with the large hip muscles. Indirect rotation caused by the phantom move (tipping of the inside foot) is fine. This 2nd type is easy to control and modulate and has the side benefit of changing the center of gravity to the inside of the turn at the same time. Other methods of rotation do not come with the natural shift in balance that the phantom move does.

In other words, if I want to turn right, I tip my inside/right foot . I do not have to diverge the tips, however, but just tip it. This shifts balance to the right, as well as gets the outside foot tipping as a result of the kenetic chain. Do this in balance and at the rate the skis carve, you get carved turns. Do the tipping more on the inside foot beyond what the skis can turn, and you get rotation and a skidded turn. Do it in mid air like in Eskis book and you set up for landing your hop turn. Do it with countering or counterbalancing to change the type and amount of edging. Do it with soft edges and get a very drifted turn. Lift the tail up on the inside ski and keep the tip on the surface and tip, and you'll generate a nice hockey stop all without any of the hip kickout most people do hockey stops with. That one move generates all maner of turns and turn styles.

No one ever said rotation does not exist in PMTS, it's more of a question as to how it is initiated and controlled.

Combine the above with EWS and you get a smooth release and top of turn carving with ease. (but like my earlier post referencing Erik's sequence shot by Ron - the EWS is caused by pressure removal and tipping of the downhill ski which is what makes it work and makes it not negative to the CM movement)

In those various turn styles above, though, on Carvers, some things won't work, like the phantom move hocky stop. On Carvers you are more limited to rotation matched with what the tipping and pressuring have made the carvers do. They are a more "true carving" environment then skis are. Certainly it would be a disaster to use non PMTS type movements on carvers (like diverging the tips while tipping instead of just tipping).

[ydnar]

I have a monent here to make a quick comment.

John,

You are very convinced that the ES photo sequence is a clear example of an early weight shift turn. You site the ninth and tenth images where Eric's outside ski is off the snow to argue this point. But you either miss or choose to ignore the fact that in the eleventh image the outside ski is pressured and arced in the direction of that same turn. So is Eric making a early weight shift to the inside ski of the turn and then a late weight shift to the outside ski of the turn?

Check out my post on this turn over on epic for a more complete view of what I see happening in this sequence.

yd

[piggyslayer]

Rusty wrote:

I am of the opinion, and this is key, that any tipping movement of the foot, inversion or eversion involves other foot movements. Those other foot movements are planter/dorsi flexion and lateral or medial rotation.

If you agree then rotation of the foot is a primary movement. As these movements become more dynamic they transfer up the kinetic chain to the femur and the top of the femur.....or hip.

Rusty, foot rotation is not a foot movement it is hip movement, it involves hip muscles and hip joint. Ankle does not rotate this way, hip socket does. Such movements do not transfer to hip, they are created/initiated by the hip.

I may have come to the conclusion PMTS proponents are opposed to any lateral rotation of the inside leg.

Check out the holy Grail thread. SkierSynergy is explaining why PMTS does not approve of lateral rotation.

My .2 cents on this: it results in skeletally week position of the outside leg/knee joint and is likely to introduce rotation (as opposed to counter) in the hip joints. If you want I can elaborate why it is so.

Robert

[John Mason]

I have a monent here to make a quick comment.

John,

You are very convinced that the ES photo sequence is a clear example of an early weight shift turn. You site the ninth and tenth images where Eric's outside ski is off the snow to argue this point. But you either miss or choose to ignore the fact that in the eleventh image the outside ski is pressured and arced in the direction of that same turn. So is Eric making a early weight shift to the inside ski of the turn and then a late weight shift to the outside ski of the turn?

Check out my post on this turn over on epic for a more complete view of what I see happening in this sequence.

yd

10 - old outside ski lifted - moves all weight to the inside about to be outside ski
11 - Because of the removal of support of the outside ski, the body has moved to our right (skiers left) - ski is on snow, but weight still removed (how can we tell?)
12 frame - pole plant, body has continued to cross over the skis proving pressure is still on the new outside foot and removed from the ski closest to the pole plant.

I don't see how it's a late weight shift to his right ski. The weight shift to that right ski occured in frame 10 and stayed there.

http://www.skiracing.com/features/news_ ... sArticles/

Erik was edging the little toe edge of the inside ski in frame's 10 and 11. At frame 12 the outside ski is still pressured but flat. By frame 13 we would have seen the new outside ski edging on it's BTE as a result of the body crossover and resulting inclination created.

[Rusty Guy]

Rusty wrote:

I am of the opinion, and this is key, that any tipping movement of the foot, inversion or eversion involves other foot movements. Those other foot movements are planter/dorsi flexion and lateral or medial rotation.

If you agree then rotation of the foot is a primary movement. As these movements become more dynamic they transfer up the kinetic chain to the femur and the top of the femur.....or hip.

Rusty, foot rotation is not a foot movement it is hip movement, it involves hip muscles and hip joint. Ankle does not rotate this way, hip socket does. Such movements do not transfer to hip, they are created/initiated by the hip.

I may have come to the conclusion PMTS proponents are opposed to any lateral rotation of the inside leg.

Check out the holy Grail thread. SkierSynergy is explaining why PMTS does not approve of lateral rotation.

My .2 cents on this: it results in skeletally week position of the outside leg/knee joint and is likely to introduce rotation (as opposed to counter) in the hip joints. If you want I can elaborate why it is so.

Robert

I respectfully disagree piggy. The point I was trying to make apparantly was not well said. I knew I ran the risk of failing.

I wholeheartedly agree that the genesis for all ski turns originates in the foot....a primary movement. My point is that any tipping involves other movements because the foot is tri-planar. The ankle does have rotational capabilities due to the 8-12 degrees of rotation available via the tib fibs.

I can sit in a chair (desk or chairlift) and rotate my foot and/or ski.

It is my respectful opinion,based upon discussions with kinesiologists that inversion typically involves medial rotation and dorsiflexion. Eversion lateral rotation and plantarflexion.

John.......I only read the first portion of your post, albeit quickly, and thought it was great! Good discussion.

[ydnar]

Piggy,

About your comment, "Rusty, foot rotation is not a foot movement it is hip movement, it involves hip muscles and hip joint. Ankle does not rotate this way, hip socket does. Such movements do not transfer to hip, they are created/initiated by the hip." I have to disagree with this. Seated in my chair I can point my left foot left and right foot right with no involvement of the femur/hip. On the other hand tipping of the feet is much more difficult to do without involving the femur/hip. Both these moves will recruit rotation of the femur at the hip joint, neither require it. By the way, either tipping or pointing can be driven by a hip movement but working from such a high joint involving such large muscles is less efficent in that it just can't be as precise. Intrestingly, from my little impromptu experiment tipping seems to recruit this movement more directly than pointing of the foot does. This seems to go along with my feeling when skiing that pointing is actually a finer movement than tipping and gives me a finer control of my change of direction.

yd



[/i]

[ydnar]

John,

We can tell that the outside ski is pressured (in 11) because it is decambered and on its inside edge.

I'm not saying that he makes a late weight shift to his outside ski. I'm just pointing out that the ski is pressured and carving in the old turn and using your own terminology to ask how you would explain what I see. Personally, I never worry about weight shift, pressure distribution is something that will take care of itself if we allow it to. To paraphrase another instructor, we spend way to much time and effort trying to make happen what we should allow to happen.

yd

[John Mason]

John,

We can tell that the outside ski is pressured (in 11) because it is decambered and on its inside edge.

I'm not saying that he makes a late weight shift to his outside ski. I'm just pointing out that the ski is pressured and carving in the old turn and using your own terminology to ask how you would explain what I see. Personally, I never worry about weight shift, pressure distribution is something that will take care of itself if we allow it to. To paraphrase another instructor, we spend way to much time and effort trying to make happen what we should allow to happen.

yd

Could be the difference in perspective. Frame 11 - to me - looks like very little weight is on it. The ski is lightly pressured. The fact it's still on it's little toe edge means nothing. It could be the perspective that many have that the lte of his right ski can't hold the pressure at this point in the turn. Actually it can and does and the picture shows this. This holding the pressure on the right ski (skiers right) while releasing pressure on the left ski, which engages the LTE of the right ski, is the essence of the EWS turn. This action is what creates the lateral force you see moving the body to the skiers left.