Feet together to learn tipping

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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby h.harb » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:31 pm

Remember it's not just clamping your feet together, use a sponge or ball and hold it between your feet while skiing TFR, I don't know three guys on the planet that can do it. I am sure there are some here though, and bring video.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby ToddW » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:36 pm

Subject: Feet together to learn tipping

h.harb wrote:Two things must happen; you need incredible concentration for holding your feet together and you have to lead every tipping movement off the big toe edge, with the tipping movement toward the little toe edge for the new inside foot.

...

I know you have all heard this before, but if you don't ski it, the way I am showing it, you aren't tipping enough. In the new DVD, you will see an exercise on the flat cat track where I exaggerate my inside foot tipping. I had John following me on some of these runs. His comments, " I don't tip that far, I've never tipped that far, I am going to tip that far".


I wish I'd paid even more attention to these two aspects of Expert Skier 2 in the past. I recently made a post about some PMTS private lessons. In those lessons I spent about 1.5 days doing variants of "set-scrape-tilt" drills which are basically what Harald mentioned here: skiing with my feet closer together than I ever thought possible and trying to tip 20* extra in each turn. My tipping looks nothing like Harald's (yet!), but this is how I gained fuller control over my LTE in superphantom turns. (Details are all there in Diana's notes.)

Don't think Harald's points in this thread are mainly for skiers at Jbotti's or Max_501's level just because they were mentioned -- they're for all of us. If you're a lower level PMTS skier like me, you may be surprised at what "incredible concentration for holding your feet together" means. Towards the end of the 2nd day, I got a cramp in my right leg adductors from holding the lifted right ski right up against my left stance foot. I would never have exerted the sustained level of effort that I needed without the constant urging of a PMTS coach ... and the threat of the video camera :wink: The good news is it does wonders for your skiing and it gets easier after a few days, but (for me) still requires deliberate concentration.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:38 pm

h.harb wrote:How far off or out are the Epic guys, Lemaster and BB on this one?


Considering that most are teaching "edging" by displacing the upper body instead of tipping the feet first I'd say they have a way to go... but as I often say - what do I know.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby h.harb » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:45 pm

And why is this? And why can they never change this? Because they made a living and a reputation on leg steering and femur rotation, the movements, if you focus on them, will kill your skiing. In this day and age, I can't imagine how stupid you have to be to teach this crap. But they are stuck with it and that's why they don't understand tipping with the feet.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby BigE » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:05 pm

I can't speak for Epic, but I can speak for myself. IMO, the whole idea of rotating one leg against the other is total rubbish. I've tried to ski like this, and have gotten some strange results... bear with me. First off, if you have any significant accumulation of snow, your are going to hurt yourself; you are totally doomed. Otherwise it is possible to perform this sort of aborted moonwalk and make something resembling a turn. You can even do it on the steep. But not in snow.

I've read (and written) enough about toppling into a turn. I now think that's instructor speak for "dumping the hip" to create edge angles as there is no tipping of the feet.

I'm sure that the party line is to blend tipping movements into the rotation of one leg against the other to get some edging going. These "tipping movements" are not PMTS tipping movements. These movements are actually leaning in -- which you can get away with as you turn your feet against each other. This dead-end is obvious. You won't get massive angles by leaning in/extending and dumping the hip.

As I become more capable of doing real PMTS tipping movements, the rotation of one leg against the other became totally unnecessary. I do NOT understand why that rotation is needed in the first place to create a "steering angle" when the ski will do that for you. I do understand that you have to rotate if you are only ever toppling into the turn to create an edge angle.

Now, I've got to take a shower -- too many bad memories to wash away.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:14 pm

Haven't seen you for a bit. Welcome back E. Is Blue done for the season?

Oh - and just re-read what you wrote. I know what you said (and you're right) but look at how confusing that is!? Blend this with that and get XYZ outcome... It's not worth trying to understand because it is a waste of time. By ignoring things like that and focusing on building real skiing movements I've accomplished in 3 seasons what it takes most TTS guys a lifetime to grasp... and nearly all still fall short... and that's without an in-person lesson from Harald. God help the ski instruction industry the day he and I finally meet... only two-thirds kidding. :mrgreen:
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby ibMED » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:53 am

I like this thread as it is a reaffirmation of the PMTS basic feet position concepts I first learned in Expert Skier 2, book and DVD. This season, I have not revisited the basics of keeping feet together and edges at the same angle. With Essentials of Skiing came the more advanced concepts such as vertical separation of the feet and power releases, so my focus has been in that direction. I'm asking myself would I be a better skier if I concentrated more on basics. It's a heck of question to ask at the very end of the season. Note to self, spend next December doing the foot drills of ES 2.

Harald, thanks for recycling through this basic.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby trtaylor » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:56 am

ibMED wrote:I like this thread as it is a reaffirmation of the PMTS basic feet position concepts I first learned in Expert Skier 2, book and DVD. This season, I have not revisited the basics of keeping feet together and edges at the same angle. With Essentials of Skiing came the more advanced concepts such as vertical separation of the feet and power releases, so my focus has been in that direction. I'm asking myself would I be a better skier if I concentrated more on basics. It's a heck of question to ask at the very end of the season. Note to self, spend next December doing the foot drills of ES 2.

Harald, thanks for recycling through this basic.

ibMED,

When we gonna break out the Harb Carvers? No need to wait until next Decemebr. Found a good place to use them yet?
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby milesb » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:13 am

I <3 my narrow stance.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby polecat » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:56 pm

h.harb wrote:Remember it's not just clamping your feet together, use a sponge or ball and hold it between your feet while skiing TFR, I don't know three guys on the planet that can do it. I am sure there are some here though, and bring video.
Well, I'm sure as heck not one of them.

But I finally got around to trying it. It's a great exercise. And like all the other PMTS drills, once you start playing with it you find there's so much more to it than you ever would have guessed.

You're sure right about it being more than keeping you feet together. Without the tipping, timing and balance it won't work.

If you just clamp your feet together you won't go anywhere but straight down.

If you don't pull your feet back you either won't turn or your turns will be really big.

If you stem, even a tiny bit, even if you can't tell you're stemming at all, you'll drop it.

If you try it, expect to drop it at first, a lot.

After a bit of practice you'll drop it a lot less. But you'll still drop it.

Everybody who sees you with it in the lift line will ask "what's with the sponge?"

If you try free skiing with it it will take you a long time to get down the hill.

If you free ski with it you won't always notice when you drop it.

If you free ski with it and don't notice when you drop it, it's a long walk back to get it.

If you free ski with it on black diamond runs and drop it, it's a really long walk back to get it.

When getting on a lift there's no graceful way to hold a sponge. More likely than not you'll just stuff it in your jacket.

If it's not very cold or the snow is even slightly slushy the sponge will get very wet (duh, it's a sponge).

If you get to the bottom of the hill and stuff a wet sponge in your jacket to get on a lift you'll regret it.


pc.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby jclayton » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:35 pm

Don't forget the character building it offers by putting up with the jibes of other skiers . ( Not to mention ones own family )

And the comments like " that's what we did in the old days with a cigarrette packet "
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby ToddW » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:55 pm

polecat wrote:If you try it, expect to drop it at first, a lot.

After a bit of practice you'll drop it a lot less. But you'll still drop it.

Everybody who sees you with it in the lift line will ask "what's with the sponge?"

If you try free skiing with it it will take you a long time to get down the hill.

If you free ski with it you won't always notice when you drop it.

If you free ski with it and don't notice when you drop it, it's a long walk back to get it.

If you free ski with it on black diamond runs and drop it, it's a really long walk back to get it.

When getting on a lift there's no graceful way to hold a sponge. More likely than not you'll just stuff it in your jacket.

pc.


polecat,

Run a piece of string through the center of the sponge and tie it to a season pass retractor (or cheap office pass retractor from Staples) clipped to your ski pants. No problems on the lifts and you know the instant the sponge comes loose. It still looks funny though, but then the other peoples' turns look funny so you come out even.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:34 pm

You're sure right about it being more than keeping you feet together. Without the tipping, timing and balance it won't work.

If you just clamp your feet together you won't go anywhere but straight down.

If you don't pull your feet back you either won't turn or your turns will be really big.

If you stem, even a tiny bit, even if you can't tell you're stemming at all, you'll drop it.

If you try it, expect to drop it at first, a lot.

After a bit of practice you'll drop it a lot less. But you'll still drop it.

Everybody who sees you with it in the lift line will ask "what's with the sponge?"

If you try free skiing with it it will take you a long time to get down the hill.

If you free ski with it you won't always notice when you drop it.

If you free ski with it and don't notice when you drop it, it's a long walk back to get it.

If you free ski with it on black diamond runs and drop it, it's a really long walk back to get it.

When getting on a lift there's no graceful way to hold a sponge. More likely than not you'll just stuff it in your jacket.

If it's not very cold or the snow is even slightly slushy the sponge will get very wet (duh, it's a sponge).

If you get to the bottom of the hill and stuff a wet sponge in your jacket to get on a lift you'll regret it.

polecat


Very good post I love this. You are sponge-BoB expert. I used Velcro for those getting started, less walking back uphill.

You will suffer with this exercise, but will you gain something, you will never know until you get it done.
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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby polecat » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:44 pm

ToddW wrote:...Run a piece of string through the center of the sponge and ....


h.harb wrote:.... I used Velcro for those getting started, less walking back uphill....


yup, here's the current rig:
Image

No walking back but I still don't care for it dangling on the lift and it still picks up a lot of water. I think I'm going to try to find a chunk of closed-cell foam.


h.harb wrote:.... You will suffer with this exercise, but will you gain something, you will never know until you get it done.

Oh, yeah. Even with the little practice I have so far I can really see it'll teach me a lot.

But I'm seriously looking forward to trying it on something other than warm, squishy blues and hard-packed blacks.


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Re: Feet together to learn tipping

Postby BigE » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:59 pm

Heluva,

Still a bit of skiing to be had.

This reluctant convert has found that without pulling back the feet there is insufficient functional tension in the legs to transmit the tipping movements from the inside foot to the outside foot. Also, balancing is much more difficult. I have found that especially as the conditions worsen, the need to do this consciously on each and every turn is greater and greater. The differences between todays methods and the PMTS methods is stunning.

Once again, I am saddened by this. Especially given that there is really so very little time for kids to waste at the hill. The trip down is a minute. The trip up is 9. 6 runs per hour MAX. 6 hours/day = 36 minutes of skiing, if you never talk or do a drill. A realistic number is 20.

Where in those 20 minutes do we have time to teach bogus movement patterns?
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