Some questions about PMTS methods

[skiman123321]

My wife and I are anxiously awaiting the January A Basin camp. At this point we feel like we are suffering from the ?terminal intermediate? syndrome. We have taken many lessons with some being beneficial and most being confusing. Usually, the first thing I hear is ?widen your stance?. I think my stance is already wide enough to drive a truck between my legs. (I am not trying to open old subjects, just illustrate a point.) I watch a lot of ski racing and hear announcers talking about the ?new skis? and racers using a wide stance. When I watch the racers in slow motion, I see a lot of vertical separation, and very little lateral separation. I recall one lesson my wife and I had. I asked the instructor about tipping the free foot to the little toe edge. I got a quizzical ?huh? look from him. He said he didn?t do that. Yet when I watched him make short turns on a steeper hill, that is exactly what he did, and in a narrow stance. Last year in Canada we took a lesson where a lot of emphasis was place on sinking down at the end of the turn. I read ski instruction articles in well known ski publications. One of the first issues this year talked about ?railroad track? two footed turns. I also watch a ski show over the winter season which originates in Canada. There is lots of talk about turning your feet, ?you have to turn your feet?. Cross over, cross under, up un weighting, down un weighting, drive your knee into the box, equal pressure on both skis????ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! Can you say confused? I am not trying to issue criticism, just trying to understand why what I hear and see differ so much. I have Harald?s first book and video. However, trying to incorporate the PMTS methods into a lesson makes things even more confusing.

The point of all this rambling is to ask a few questions about PMTS methods prior to camp so we don?t practice poor habits prior to the lessons.

1. Is there really a down movement at the end of the turn, or is it more of movement of the feet and legs to the outside that results in a downward movement?

2. Is there any steering of the feet or is the turn radius generated only from the free foot tipping angle?

3. Is it necessary to ?drive your knee into the box??

4. Is cross over / under and up / down un weighting something I should be thinking about while skiing?

Thanks for any answers to my questions.

[milesb]

1. In general, no or not much.
2. tip the free foot. that is all.
3. no.
4. no.

Follow the book and video, you'll be fine. Do the exercises, they are laid out pretty well. Make sure you do the "self tests" to see if you are doing them right, or better yet, take video and post it here so Harald or SkiSynergy can let you know. At this stage, don't listen to anything else or take any non PMTS lessons.

[piggyslayer]

Would it not be great if realskiers.com offered subscription choice with web server space to post videos accompanying technical questions?

One little comment: (1) the down movement at the end of the turn maybe a distant cousin of PMTS flexing legs to release described in Harald's books.

Funny thing, your post and qustions are really a perfect digest of most of the recent discussions on this forum comparing PMTS and TTS teaching.

Welcome to the forum.

[Eddy]

Skiman you are about to experience the best instruction system in skiing. Although you are signed for an all mountain camp (which I have participated in) you will still learn many of the basics of the PMTS system. You don?t need to use or worry about the other confusing parts of skiing you are asking about in your questions. The answer is no to all of your questions. Harald has incorporated into his PMTS systems all of what skiers need to made rapid progress, without a likelihood of plateauing you see with traditional instruction. You stated you have already experienced that aspect. He has eliminated all the confusing useless movements taught by other systems. Read his books and watch the videos if you want to prepare for the camp.

Answers to questions 1 and 2:
No down movement necessary at the end of the turn. There is a bending or flexing of the stance leg (outside leg) to release pressure, but no down movement of the hips or center of gravity.
Tipping or tilting of the old stance foot/ski to the little toe edge is correct. Answer to the last two questions-No!!

What the Canadians are demonstrating and preaching these days with their down movement emphasis is very different from what Harald recommends in his flexing or bending to release the downhill ski. The Canadians for the last ten years have taken on a very confusing approach that recommends low hips and extreme bending of the knees and hunching of the upper body forward. It is not a very appealing or energy saving method or position. There are very good skiers from Canada, but the ones following there present system have an unnatural look. Harald after all grew up in Canada, raced for Canada and doesn?t ski that way.

Frankly, if you had started with Harald?s book and focused on little toe edge, you would have been on the right track and probably out of your terminal intermediate stage by now. You are right; ski teaching is full of confusion. Harald and his books and videos have made it simple. But don?t try to mix PMTS with all the other stuff, because as you said, it will really make it confusing. The different systems don?t go together, just like you can?t put a Yugo carburetor on a Porsche. PMTS is a complete system without need of outside influence. The other systems pick out bits from PMTS here and there, but still they can?t produce an efficient directly effective way to learn skiing.

What you said about racing is right on the money, the instructors without racing experience like to analyze and talk racing and racing technique, but they don?t often get it right. It?s like you and me trying to analyze Tiger Wood?s golf swing. Ski instructors are not trained or qualified to analyze racers or racing turns. One of the most obvious misguided, confusing contributions to racing technique is by the author of a racing book, who has only a ski instructor background.

This author is not a race coach, he is a computer engineer. He analyzes pictures and video and then puts his spin on the racers? technique. His photos and book are entertaining to some, but they are in most cases incorrect, and are based on observations, not experience. When I hear quotes from his book mostly there are to support or justify wide, two footed, evenly weighted or two foot pressured stance, I can only shrug and offer an alternative. His writing is based on observations with limited experience and if you follow his descriptions for your own skiing you will head down a dead-end road. I feel obligated to warn skiers about the pitfalls of these approaches. Others of the same ilk are the Gorilla turns by Al Hobart. Instructors get much of their misguided information from these authors.

I know you are going enjoy the Harb System and the coaches; they are all great instructors and skiers.

[Guest]

It is worth noting that the author of the book you are obviously referring to, while he may not be a race coach, has been a valued consultant to the US Ski Team for quite some time.

That's all--can't think of much else about your posts that's worth noting.

Mike Hunt

[piggyslayer]

Answers to questions 1 and 2:
No down movement necessary at the end of the turn. There is a bending or flexing of the stance leg (outside leg) to release pressure, but no down movement of the hips or center of gravity.
Tipping or tilting of the old stance foot/ski to the little toe edge is correct. Answer to the last two questions-No!!

Eddy, am I confused on this? Flexing BOTH legs to release is good, lowering the CM speeds up the forces which will propel you into next turn, this is good as well. These are not contrary to PMTS teaching, and in fact are part of it.

I am not familiar with "down movements" and how other systems teach these now, but flexing both legs or sinking to release has merit. Think, for example, skiing in powder or in bumps.

I agree with your other comments.