Carver Camp - Golden CO

[Curious]

Bottom line, much greater awareness of my own movement patterns and balance.

Having had the opportunity to see you ski I will simply say I'm at a total loss for words.

It was nice to meet you.

Rusty,
in a good or in a bad way...??

[John Mason]

Curious - I'm sure Rusty means in a bad way.

It's Rusty after all. Check his posts out on Epic. Judge his credibilty there. Look at his history of posts with Snowdog and others.

Personally I really enjoyed the camp and the awareness it brought to my skiing regardless of others opinions. I did not ski with Rusty or Bob, but they did stop briefly and say hi then they skied down the hill. This was right after I got off the catwalk on my first run on a pair of radically different skis I had never skied with before. I was doing a side slip drill when they came by just to get a feel for if these skis were going to be "hard edgers" like my 6 stars, or "soft edgers" like my I75ms.

For myself I spent the rest of the morning not skiing so much but trying different things like 5 short radius alternating with 5 long turns, one ski vs two ski balance, playing with varying levels of countering, making turns and seeing how balanced and smooth my left vs right were as this was a primary goal of the camp. It took me about 2 to 3 runs for me to get my "ski legs" back. The skis I was playing with have an 11m radius so to get a "normal" turn going, the edging vs turn are quite different than the 15m-18m range skis I was used to. IE the way you balance on them dynamically was quite different. I had skied on Atomic SL's with a similar sidecut this summer, but these skis were "fat" and tended to float on top more rather than cut into the snow like the Atomics. I suppose if one has skied for years they can transition to a different type of ski instantly. I have not skied for years and it took some runs to get "normal".

I would have liked to ski with Rusty and Bob just to share movement patterns and ideas on the slopes, but I never saw them again till about 1pm when I stopped for lunch. Bob and Rusty were leaving. Bob asked me where I went. I told him no place but just kept doing runs. Bob correctly proffered that we must have been out of sync in our laps. But, given Rusty's history of posts on Epic he is probably more interested in gathering "evidence" then having fun and sharing ideas.

I will welcome the input of my fellow PMTS'ers at the November camp. (and I'll get a video posted then) I really don't care how I look to others as long as I know I'm getting better compared to myself.

[Rusty Guy]

Curious - I'm sure Rusty means in a bad way.
It's Rusty after all. Check his posts out on Epic. Judge his credibilty there. Look at his history of posts with Snowdog and others.

Thanks John.......that's right check out my posts. You will find that I have never said ANYTHING negative about anyone's skiing. Never have and never will.

I have praised Haralds skiing

I have praised Diana's skiing.

I have praised SCSA's skiing

[jclayton]

Rusty ,
from an objective point of view your previous post seemed to have negative inferences as to Johns skiing . Why would you be speechless ? John appears to be a beginner but a very well informed one . Unfortunately skiing is a sport where there is a certain arrogance displayed towards beginners by those more experienced ( not to say this is the case here as I don't know the parties involved ) . It would be nice to see more assistance towards those " carve inhibited " folks on the slopes .
The perrenial problem of course is how to educate them to look in the right places .
John , by the way , explained a little what he was trying to do ( a bit apologetically ) as members of the other point of view you could have spent a few minutes discussing his views . As I said I may be on the wrong track as I don't know the circumstances .
It is actually good to see discussions becoming more civilised .

Keep carving , we over in Europe still have a while to go before snow , it's actually rather warm at the moment .

[Ott Gangl]

>>>>For myself I spent the rest of the morning not skiing so much but trying different things like 5 short radius alternating with 5 long turns, one ski vs two ski balance, playing with varying levels of countering,<<<

John, when we ski together in Seven Springs there will be no drills and all thinking will be suspended. Over fifty years ago back home in the Bavarian Alps I learned the formula, I'll give it to you now so you can 'think' about it now BECAUSE ALL THINKING WILL BE OUTLAWED THERE WHILE SKIING!

Here is the formula:

In the morning, before we start to ski we drink three shots of Jaegermeister and chase it with a beer. That is just enough to still keep your equilibrium and balance but it will suspend all THINKING.

The litmus test if you have it just right is that after a few turns you should feel like YODELING and NOT be aware that you are on skis, it doesn't matter if you know how to yodel or not and all skiers around you should look like angels floating down the slope.

If, after a few turns you 'think' " I don't feel like yodeling and I'm still aware of my skis and all skiers around me look like hacks" , you are 'thinking' too much and you need a reinforcing shot of Jaegermeister.

If, on the other hand, you notice that you fall down after releasing at the end of every turn, three shots were too much, understandable since Jaegermeister affects people with lower body weight more than us normal heavyweights.

In that case you need to sit on the sun deck for an hour, making sure you take off your goggles or sun glasses so you won't look like an owl when you get home and it also helps to hold one of those reflective shields under your chin. In my case, I also need to take my hat off so my bald head doesn't look like I'm wearing a scull cap.

When the skiers on the slope look like angels floating down the hill it is time to put your skis back on.

After a good and plenty lunch, three shots of Jaegermeister will assure that your nap will be restful and that when you wake up you are prepared to go to happy hour (or tea dance, when in Europe) and enjoy your manhattens.

Anderl Molterer, a hot shot racer in the olden times had it right with the exception that he chased his Jaegermeisters with champagne. Easy for him, since he never had to pay for it.

So now you know. Start practicing "NOT THINKING WHILE SKIING".

....Ott

[ydnar]

Ott,

Thank you for giving me such a wonderfull laugh out loud moment.

Jaeger Turns. We'll call it the Jaeger Shot Skiing System. Its teaching mantra will be "Disconnect the brain, go ski, yodel. In the off season you can work on doing the shots and yodeling. Brilliant!!!

yd

[BigE]

Brilliant! I have to start practicing ASAP! Can you perhaps help me with the "perfect shot"? An experienced Jaeger-turner such as yourself must have the inside scoop! Thanks in advance,

Cheers!

[SkierSynergy]

Actually, being from Wisconsin originally. I'm familiar with all the Jaeger drinks. My favorite is a Burt Reynolds (Jaeger and Red Bull). It's easier to keep you energy up with this drink . . . for the first three at least.

[John Mason]

Ott, I promise in Silver Springs - I'll just ski.

[Guest]

John,

Silver Springs is in Maryland. Ott wants to meet you at Seven Springs and that is outside of Ligonier Pennsylvania. It is where I grew up skiing under the teaching of Lars Skyling in 1963.

I was kind of hoping that by now you would have responded to my post. I want to take a moment to expand upon what I said.

Three years ago a guy named PMTS wacko, aka, SCSA appeared at Epicski. He came in with a flourish criticizing traditional ski teaching, making a claim to be a better skier than 97% of the population (sound familiar?), etc., etc., I was the first person at epicski to go ski with the guy. I posted a rather glowing report about the guys skiing and enthusiasm.

Let's be perfectly honest. SCSA initiated much of the rancor. To this day, I consider him to be a friend, however, he would be man enough to admit he got the fire roaring. That is his style and he is proud of it.

I think it is the job and/or duty of a ski professional to focus on the positives in other folks skiing. I may be critical of some of the things esposed by Harald. That is a different matter.

Our friend Ott and I have had the chance to ski together. For any age individual, Ott is a very gifted skier. For a man his age he is exceedingly gifted. I spent a day skiing with him and on that day he was suffering from a mild concussion due to a boarder knocking him down the day before and he had a touch of pneumonia. He skiied like a twenty year old all day. Ott wrote me and asked about your skiing. I gave him an honest appraisal. That prompted Ott to offer you a little advice.

I would have offered my counsel, however, I did not do so for three simple reasons;

1. You didn't ask.
2. You would not listen.
3. You seem at times to have all the answers.

I want to speak to these points for a moment. First I try to not give unsoloicited advice to skiers. In the event they want my help they can take a lesson. You seemed to be saddened that we did not spend time with you to, as you put it, exchange ideas. We both realize there would be no exchange. You would have done just what you have done on the internet for the past year. On the topic of listening. You have a teacher. You believe in his teachings THAT IS WHAT LEARNING IS ALL ABOUT. I have suggested before that you should continue with PMTS. I simply ask that you realize from our side of the fence we have no desire to here you say, after 75 days, what is right or wrong with PSIA. It is bad stuff and in bad taste IMHO.

Now, I will explain my use of the word speechless and this dovetails into what Ott wrote. Allow me to digress for one moment. This week Bob, Mike W, Katey P and I all skiied with Lisamarie from epicski. She is a relatively new skier like yourself. She has your same love of the sport and boundless enthusiasm. Between the four of us, I assume we have close to a century of teaching experience. We all agreed on one thing and that was to leave her alone and advise her to just go ski.

I was "speechless" because on a beautiful Colorado day, there you were alone, drudgingly traversing the hill doing drills. We know all the drills. We have seen them, read portions of Harald's book, been prostelytized to by a myriad of folks who believe PSIA is the old and PMTS the new. He has you convinced he alone has reinvented the wheel. It was my day off. I wasn't about to participate in a live version of these forums.

I have gone on too long. Go ski. You look like you were working in a field behind a plow and mule. It's recreation not work. I think if you will stop thinking and start having fun you might find you'll have a few folks to go ski with and you just might start to ski pretty darn well.

The main objection I have to PMTS is the original premise put forth that "everyone can be an expert skier".

I disagree.

I do believe everyone can learn to have fun skiing.

[Rusty Guy]

The above was my post.....I must not have typed in a username.

[Ott Gangl]

John and Rusty, SCSA was also doing drill 80% of the time on the slopes, he said. I feel that it's their business as long as they ski alone, it may well be productive for them. There are skiers who learn progressions one at the time before going on to something else by intensely practicing it and there are skiers who practice the full range of skiing and learn by challenging themselves and learning to handle the challenge by repetition.

But I think the moment you ski with someone else for fun you should put practicing aside unless you chance boring your skiing partners. Most of the time when I ski with a bunch there are few words spoken, maybe something like "That was a nice run" or something like that.

On the other hand, if after a run I find that my 'fun' skiing doesn't match my skiing partners' fun skiing, maybe because they ski faster than I like, I'll excuse myself and ski alone or with my wife who also likes to ski like I do. I do this because I don't want to hold anyone back, I usually stop more often because I'm giving in to my age, and also it takes the pressure off me to keep up.

But doing drills and talking about them is when skiiing alone or with a like minded person.

When I asked Rusty how you skied he really couldn't tell me because by your own post you were doing drills so that what prompted me to post the Jaegermeister post to let you know that when the bunch of us ski in Seven Springs, we'll just ski any old which way, to each his own style and have hell of a lot of fun. We all could improve, I'm sure, but that's for another day. Fun skiing isn't really to show your skiing partners how good you are or how good they could be.

Cheers...

.....Ott

[Eddy]

Rusty is a passive, subversive, antagonist. He thinks he?s subtle but that?s why people here on PMTS don?t like him or his posts. We see through him. Many call him on his BS. He tries to cover up his subversive comments by throwing a bone every once and awhile like ?I never say anything bad about anyone?s skiing?, yet he constantly attacks Harald personally, on Epic. He has plenty to say about PMTS other than Harald, Diana and SCSA are good skiers. His comments are mostly childish, playground type of attacks.


I saw him in action for a couple of months last year when I posted on Epic, as Carver-lust. I became disenchanted with Epic because of the relentless double speak, rambling and confusion. The normal post is pages long, makes no sense, but some how proves to their audience that BB and company are ski experts.

I was so pleased when Peter Keelty and Harald joined up and started this forum. Even the people from Epic (mostly) are polite and more even minded then when they post on Epic. They still go back to Epic and agree with BB on everything. I think if you don?t over there you are not in the ?secret hand shake club?.


Rusty, unfortunately for him and I believe that?s where much of his angry originates, is in no-mans-land. He hangs off BB?s coat tails. He isn?t recognized as an expert on Epic or any where else as far as I can gather. I don?t even know what or where Eldora is and he sure isn?t appreciated on PMTS. So Rusty, go away.

In conclusion, this is not an attack on Rusty personally; I think he?s a great guy, probably one of the best ski instructors in the world, if not in the USA.

[jclayton]

Wow Eddy ,
thats a bit like the old Mafia saying " it's not personal , just business " as they're about to put a bullet through someones head . I think these guys are making an effort at communication with the other side ( us ).
I have my suspicions that many of these " expert " skiers from Epic etc.. make PMTS movements at transition but won't admit it or are not aware of it or just read the movements differently . I have met excellent skiers who have been skiing since 2 or 3 years old and ski and race beautifully but could not tell me how they make the transition . In many cases they seem to read it all wrong yet do it instinctively . Harald seems to see it in slow motion , it is this breakdown into components that I have found so new and helpful . This " moment " for me holds the key .

[Ott Gangl]

>>>>but could not tell me how they make the transition . In many cases they seem to read it all wrong yet do it instinctively<<<<

Exactly. Until just a few years ago, making transitions wasn't the big thing, they just happened. Turn initiations were the problem. In other words, not the transition from one turn to the other but breaking the skis loose from their trajectory to initiate a turning force. So the old traditional nomenclature still hangs on even though now most turns are linked insted going fron traverse to traverse.

I am out of teaching skiing for 19 years now after teaching formally for 25 years and off and on in the Austrian, French and the early American systems.

I couldn't tell you what I do to make a transition, it just happens, sometimes like this, sometimes like that.

But I'm talking from the point of a long time skier and realise that with modern equipment the need is there to teach those transitions in the most efficient way to new skiers.


....Ott