Late hit and edge set skiing!

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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby oggy » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:36 am

h.harb wrote:This is really high end MA, which PSIA, Epic and most coaches never see or understand.


Thanks Harald! You really do have an eye for this stuff... I could pick up some obvious differences to a "prescribed" PMTS short turn on my own, but nothing like this - I wouldn't be able to pick up the same mistakes in my turns (not that I can make turns this good to begin with).

Still, is it safe to say that the 2nd guy in the original is loading his skis much earlier in the turn and suffers less from the "late hit" syndrome than the first one?
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:01 am

The point is, this skier will always struggle in difficult situations compared to a skier who can release rather than push off, because he leads with his big toe edge and he uses an up and push-off movement. Watch the Japanese and Berger, they don't push off unless they are intending to use it for demonstrations. I hate the feeling of pushing off, it makes you use muscles you shouldn't use in skiing. It also makes skiing a fight against the mountain, not a movement with the elements. It's not esthetic from any point of view.
I am not a purist, I'm a realist and in tune with efficiency.

The reason traditional ski teaching is screwed up, is because the deciders of national techniques don't understand what efficiency is about. They don't recognize the difference between World Cup movements and ski instructor movements, even good ski instructor movements are not the same as world cup skiers. This should be obvious, it's in every theme on this Forum.

People always ask me how it is that WC skiers develop their way of releasing, if they are not taught it as kids. The answer is evolve it as a matter of survival, efficiency and speed needs. You will not go far in ski racing if you use only a push off technique. It's really funny to me how Epic coaches are always analyzing WC turns and they have no idea how they feel. None of them can ski that way.
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby jclayton » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:19 am

John ,
the image is not good but if that is a Japanese skier then he has stolen Richie's clothes , boots and sunglasses . Those orientals will go to any lengths . ( Please excuse the political incorrectness )
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:41 am

Can someone put up video where it identifies the skier as Berger?
The guy in the Yellow/green pants doesn't ski like an Austrian.
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:51 am

This is Berger:


You will often see this entry, if you use, a modified hopping, push-off technique.
Image

The skiing with the yellow pants is great.
Orange suit skier, I don't like this guy's turns. He is hitting late and hard. He has a push off entry to the next turn. He does finish the arc, but he has mistakes. This is not Berger.

Are you beginning to see the difference?
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:28 pm

ImageThe comparison here is between a push off turn entry and a flexed release. The push off means you have to wait until you are back on the snow. It also means that the push off can throw you off balance, as this skier shows. He is too extended into the turn and not yet balanced on the skis. He has had to over counter as well to control the push off forces he created.
ImageNotice how my hips are more level and my upper body is CB.
ImageThis is a frame later with added tipping.My skis have tip pressure and the skis are bent.
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:36 pm

Image
Here is the crux of the whole matter. I am on the snow and in balance.
1.Upper body is relaxed and shoulders and hips are level just after transition.
2.Inside ski is more tipped or leading the tipping.
3. Hands, Hips and shoulders stay level, any other movements should happen below hips with feet and legs, without any body movements.
4. No pushing on the skis here.
5. If you push on either ski here, you can't keep tipping. Pushing against the surface moves your CM. Don't move your CM.
Pushing against the skis here, pushes your CG inside and out of balance.
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby JohnMoore » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:01 pm

jclayton wrote:John ,
the image is not good but if that is a Japanese skier then he has stolen Richie's clothes , boots and sunglasses .


Yes, I think you're right (about it being Richie, not about the theft). I came across a much clearer version on YouTube.
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:22 pm

If you look more closely the clothes are not the same. The Japanese skier has a Japanese emblem on his jacket and his pants are a different color. Not to mention he stands differently on his skis and skis differently. Richard Berger has a straight back when he skis and his head is up; the Japanese skier hunches with his shoulders and keeps his head tucked in. He also has jet black hair closely cropped. Berger has blond hair. Come on guys this isn't even close.

Also Berger skis with his feet closer and doesn't knee drive. The other skier drives his knees and is often big toe edge dominant. Berger never shows this action.
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby jclayton » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:24 pm

I seem to remember in the full length video seeing this kind of skiing , but maybe it was another guy ( Japanese ? ) . The orange suited guy was also in the same full length video .

Now I'll see if I can fine tune my MA eyes !Terrific thread !
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby romeomike » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:39 pm

That guy in the orange that you dont like is ritchie berger, both the videos of the guy in the yellow pants is ritchie berger also.. I have that DVD.... 100% him... its in german and its 6 different types of short turns... he relates to it as gears in a car.... his first is a basic short turn with a lot of extension (pop) and late edge and a lot of twisting of the skis... the one in the orange suit that is hitting his edge late is the 3rd type of short turn in the DVD... the yellow pants where he is hunched over a lot is the last one... the 6th gear as he refers to it as... the DVD is good.. it goes through a lot of different drills to execute those moves...
I also have another 2 dvd's from ritchie berger... the japanese hire him to come over and make instructionals... they tell him what they want him to demonstrate... in this DVD he demonstrates many different short turns... he is an extremely versatile skier.. can demonstrate nearly everything... at the end there is a great section of mogul skiing... and a short turn based for the moguls...
there is a new one out that i havent got but my friend does where he is in a purple suit... but my friend said that he skies totally different to any of the other dvds hes made... once again demonstrating a totally different look.... heres the link to the new dvd
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlGRUlSL98Y[/youtube]
in this dvd he hits the edge very late, looks pushy... there are a few other guys in there too but hes the one in the purple suit....

here is another from the the 6 different types of short turns from the ritchie berger DVD
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t9aD0jTOA8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkAtrIWyXCQ[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKPTRkQf-gc&feature=related[/youtube]

in this next video its Ritchie Bergers Snowsports academy... its a ski instructor training program, for the first level ski instructor to the full cert (statliche) Ritchie Berger split from the Bundisportheim and made his own certification in his region... his trainers also have instructional DVD's out too... Hannes Pusnig and Hannes Rottensteiner... which I have also... also great skiing in there... but its very pushy late edge set skiing... Ritchi is the guy in all black and all red... the other guys are his trainers...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCHfz3d_26k[/youtube]

Unlike Haralds skiing which is very smooth and i would say more efficient these guys are very skilled and great athletes... and extremely talented... as you can see... very exciting to watch... but as it seems dont just demonstrate one style...
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:43 pm

I'm not convinced. The skiing is too different. Where do you get this DVD?
Image
If this is Berger I'm not as impressed, if I saw that in my skiing, I'd do something about it.
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby romeomike » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:51 pm

here is a trailer for the other Ritchie Berger DVD's that i have... the girl in the white jacket and Blue pants is meant to be his student and does all the exercises with him... this dvd goes from never skied before to advanced mogul skiing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2R6mbSxHfo

this clip the guy in the pink suit and grey suit and black and yellow suit is ritchie berger.... the guy in the red pants and black jacket is Hannes Rottensteiner (i also have the dvd that this clip is from), one of ritchies trainers in the snowsports academy trailer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwvSfitj ... re=related
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby romeomike » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:59 pm

http://www.youtube.com/user/SKIjournal# ... 2R6mbSxHfo

this is the Ski Journal youtube site... Ski Journal is a magazine in japan that has a ski instructional DVD in every issue... most are from the Japanese Demo team... but ritchie comes over to do them also...
You can watch trailers for all the DVD's (there are a few that I have that are not advertised there for some reason but none the less there are a lot of episodes)...
I know that its ritchie berger in the DVD because in the credits it only has his name as the demonstrator and it has a big interview with him at the start of each DVD talking about the the skiing... and where hes from and what he does... I speak german and its dubbed over withe japanese but you can still hear the german... All the skiers are Ritchie... he is amazing at changing how he skis and how he looks when he skis... that is why the japanese hire him to come over... they tell him what they want him to demonstrate and then makes a dvd on it... he crazy...
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Re: Late hit and edge set skiing!

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:03 pm

This guy in the yellow pants is not Richie, they don't ski alike or look alike. The guy in Black in the bumps is not Berger either. The guy in Black is the same skier as in this photo.
Image

If I am totally all wet, it really lowers my respect for the skiing. They are good athletes and skiers, but it's not always good skiing.
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