Late hit and edge set skiing!

[ginaliam]

Just because Berger is a great skier, why shouldn’t he be allowed to get better? How would you feel if I was coaching you and I saw you ski with Berger’s mistakes and I didn’t address them? No Need to address those mistakes because Berger makes the same mistakes. So it is OK for you to make those mistakes?

If I used that reasoning, what would I do if a skier said to me. “ Please work on my skiing except for the knee drive and squaring up of my upper body at the end of turns, that’s OK, because Berger does it.

Sure he’s a good athlete, he can get away with it. I had knee drive on my right leg when I was racing. No one told me. I saw it when video became more used in skiing. I tried to fix it, due to my alignment it comes and goes. When I am out of balance it sometimes comes back. It hurts my knee when it happens.

Max501 has right knee dropping in issues, we worked on them, we addressed them, we aligned the leg best we could, he worked on the movements to improve hip counter range of movement. It became much better. Should we have left it alone just because Berger does it?

Addressing movement breakdown is what coaching is about, unless you aren’t seeing it, if you aren’t addressing it. It should be encouraging for skiers to see that even the best skiers make similar errors as they have. They get around them through athletic ability, the mistakes are still there.

This is a great post. I hadn't really thought about this in the broadest context. Forum exchanges often lack the deeper implied meaning of the poster and the wrong impression (or impressions) are easy to make. I hadn't looked at the criticisms leveled here and elsewhere on this forum in this light: that even the best athlete's-in every sport need coaching and coaching is pointing out the mistakes and how to improve them (I mean, even Federer has a coach!)-and, even for folks who are not at that elite level, the methods of identifying and correcting those mistakes is the same. So thanks Harald for generously (and I mean that) sharing your hard-won coaching skills.


This has been a great thread

[jclayton]

It actually puts it all into context .

There has always been a myth in skiing that some are born with unattainable genetic qualities or have skied since the age of one . Giving us mortals a getout clause .

In fact all it takes is self honesty and grafting , albeit a lot of the latter . ( Just like the "aussie battler" )

[Max_501]

It is not a myth and it does not apply to skiing only.

Have you read:

The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How.

[NoCleverName]

Re: "learned" or "built-in": See also http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1209&start=0

[Bolter]

I have not read that book, looks promising.

I know from experience that poor coaching (wrong movements for example) can waste time and stymie progress no matter how much work is done. The athlete/student has to break free to find the correct movements from some other source or undertake the task alone. Trial and error is dangerous in ski racing, as is taking advice from a self proclaimed expert who has never done it successfully themselves. I know for a fact that if I was asked to coach a J1 DH or SG I would decline because I am not the right person to coach those events. To me, It is tragic that some people will not realistically evaluate their current level of skill/expertise while keeping in mind their real world skiing experience, yet insist that their views of the worlds best are valid. The FASTonia Team and it's coaches come to mind.

In my twenty years trained by the top of PSIA (examiners and demo team), I can tell you that at least half of it was waisted time due to the inefficient/incorrect mechanics being coached along the company line.

Coaching the best possible movements is the only criteria to use on the hill. There is more involved but the foundation must be efficient movements.

I have spent years looking and in my opinion the is no other published source for learning the correct movements other than what Harald has laid out in the Essentials/PMTS.

Timberline's Race Team results (J3 woman) are my proof. Go to: livetiming.com (by date) SARA Championships at Snowshoe after this weekend to see.

Once again thank you Harald, your prescribed movements and drills have helped our kids (and me) to no end.

JR

[jclayton]

Obviously only a very small percentage of skiers can win a world cup race , but anyone , given the right training and a lot of drive , can become an expert skier .

( That sounds familiar ! )

My point is that so many people don't think it is possible because they lack the genetics or childhood experience .

I is also obvious that genetics is a factor . In fact it can be a negative factor , for many who have it easy do not develop drive for that very reason .

[carver_hk]

I was away for a few days and a surprise to see so many valuable updates. Especially the MA made by Harald. Thanks Harald.

That guy in the orange that you dont like is ritchie berger, both the videos of the guy in the yellow pants is ritchie berger also.. I have that DVD.... 100% him...

I glad to learn that you have the original. May I ask you to link the video you identified as Berger for clarity.

[Max_501]

[BootsCanyon]

Max_501,

I have not read that book. Does it attempt to say that genetics is not a factor in performance?

I'd read the book but not specifically thought about it in terms of skiing before Max mentioned myelin in a recent thread.

At the extremes on either end, genetics obviously can come into play.

The point of the book is that a certain type of practice and coaching literally changes the structure of your brain, making you stronger for the activity being practiced. So you can take someone with a very average brain, and if they are motivated, get good coaching and practice in the right way their average brain can become a genius at a given activity. Motivation itself comes, in part, from brain structure, of course, so there is some push-pull even there. If you look at all the elite racers Harald has coached, coming, no offense, in many cases from backgrounds where they weren't buying success with speedsuits, etc., he has a track record of producing success far out of proportion to the numbers he was coaching.

There's a flip side to this: you learn what you practice and physically it becomes part of you. For ACL rehab one of the things they stress is to not limp. Limping is seductive in a lot of ways, including frankly getting sympathy from other people. But, if you limp during rehab you're prone to "learn" to always limp. For skiing, if you spend the majority of your time teaching beginners in a wedge, that's the way you'll begin to ski. The couple hours of freeskiing you get will not be enough to counteract the effects of all that wedging.

So, good coaching is always a bargain, and bad lessons can cost a lot more than you think.

[Bolter]

TTS wedge/wedge christie maneuvers go against every Essential. They can only lead to: Extension, big toe wedge type entries and edge set type flexing finishes with no release.

[Erik]

I only object to people who dismiss genetics.

I just blame my parents for not being Austrian. Since I can't do anything about that, I will stick with PMTS as "gene therapy".

[Max_501]

Thanks BootsCanyon for the overview. I have no issues with what you described. I only object to people who dismiss genetics.

The current studies of "talent" suggest that genetics is not the deciding factor in building greatness.

[jclayton]

Serious , in the immortal words of Charlie Brown " Goooood grief " .

No one is DISMISSING genetics . If you have one leg shorter than the other it's unlikely you would even think of becoming an elite skier . ( Though I have seen some pretty smooth skiers on one leg )

[ginaliam]

So, Max, back to the parallel Berger Videos you posted:

Are you trying to show the 'contradictory' sides of Berger? Video 1 on building a large radius turn being a little TTS-ish and video 2 demonstrating how to build an 'arrow-proof' (don't want to copyright infringe!) short turn using a a more 'acceptable' (on this forum anyway ) methodology (those brushed connected slips looked awful familiar!).

Just wondering on your motivation.

As always-you're a wealthy store of instructive internet short video clips.

Liam

also-as a side note-when I look at this video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... berger%22#
(my favorite Berger internet video)-I'm inclined to agree with Harald's initial assessment that many of the skiers in these videos are NOT berger (just about anyone wearing a hat) based on how different the skiing is from this more typical montage.

Just a thought.

[BigE]

Neither of those clips look like they are doing a particularly good job of displaying the essentials.