Late hit and edge set skiing!

[carver_hk]

I think Harald gave his thoughts already: late engagement followed by edge setting before transition.

that's the title. Thanks for reminder.

edit: its the rebounce to turn and 'push to release' that matters to me. I m seeing rebounce like serious do. I can understand Harald's theory that 'push to release' is low level skiing. But now this looks to me as rebounce to the extend of airborne and then land on an edge set to load the skis for another rebounce. Just like jumping from trampoline to trampoline. Still bad in PMTS context or skiing?

[Baja1]

That skiing looks tiring to me. All the "positive" things that posters on this thread are mentioning are the result of muscles pushing against the forces developing in their skiing, rather than harnassing, controlling, and redirecting those forces for maximum efficiency and elegance.

Thanks to Harald, I now cringe every time I see pop-up movements like these. I got very good at them when I was in PSIA in the 90's, and still try skiing like that occassionally, (just to remind myself what it feels like) but I always seem to switch to PMTS movements after half a run because I start feeling so disconnected to the snow.

carver _hk makes a nice description when he says "pumps out" turns like that. I suppose we could "pump" turns if we want to, but why would we want to?


Thanks A LOT Harald. PMTS eyes are a bloody curse when you're surrounded by skiing like this everywhere you go.

[carver_hk]

serious - once again i like your comment. I ll be worshiping you soon enough.

Baja1- you asked a very good question: I suppose we could "pump" turns if we want to, but why would we want to?
to answer your question, firstly I don't think anyone can get airborne or weightless at transition. One need to be able to bend the skis and then able to use the rebounce to do that. I like to know the answer for your second part though. But perhaps its not in the right forum to explore. I ll try not to end up asked to ask that question somewhere else if I pursue any longer.

[BigE]

The example turns are setting the edge very late. With much earlier pressure, the rebound is there.

A tipping board can help to understand Hi-C engagement -- that will help develop pressure and rebound earlier in the turn than the OP's video shows.

[jclayton]

Having a look again at the Aussie ( wearingthe green and gold in one clip , hooray hooray ) I would say it about as high a level of TTS skiing a I have seen . He is balanced , he does re-center after the release and hi CA and CB look pretty good . I cant see any sign of a stem , maybe once or twice .

But he is skiing back to front ( Southern Hemisphere perhaps ) ! Extending at transition ( though not as exaggerated as some ) and sinking into the turn around the fall line . The exact opposite of what we want if we mortals want any control in steeps , ice or bumps . I agree with Baja , it does hurt the eyes , better than watching a tiddlywinks match perhaps , but not that much .

[BigE]

His back to front skiing is interesting. He needs to flex at fall-line, because he is coming down so hard on the skis that there is no way he's going to get them to engage. The intense skidding and turning is occuring as the edges are set -- and just like PMTS, requires extension to resist the turn forces.

So he is flexing to engage and extending to resist and release.

Unfortunately for him, he rises through transition, which causes the cycle to be repeated.

If he did NOT rise, but flexed to release, he could engage much sooner, he could extend sooner and he would end up working a lot less.

[carver_hk]

I ll have no more comment on this thread. I ll be happy to see how you guys discuss if u wish to do so. Thanks for sharing your though. There is always a lot to learn from discussions.

[BigE]

serious?

extend to engage/extend to release? no. you can't have it both ways. Believe me, I know this turn.

The issue is that once you come down on the edge from up high, you cannot immediately extend. If you do, you never engage. Many tricks are taught about this exact moment, the biggest is to control pressure by flexion -- you have to land gently enough for the ski to begin to carve. Once "hooked up", you can extend to resist the turn forces/bend the ski and continue to extend as the skis come around to exit the turn.

There is nothing race-like about this. It is totally about speed control using strong edging at turn completion.

It is the anti-PMTS movement. Of that we can certainly agree.

This is close to an aborted hockey stop.

I know that the TTS folks would say otherwise -- they'd say that the pivoting of the legs in the hip joints shows that the skill of pivotting is strong, that the flexion at fall-line shows that the pressure control is strong. THEY"D SAY NOTHING OF THE TRANSITION! In TTS, that is magic.


EDIT: I have to say that from what I understand of TTS,the turn only begins when the edges are sufficiently engaged. I know, it sounds bad. But by sufficiently engaged, I mean deflecting the CM in a significant way. In this fashion TTS can ignore the entire Hi-C segment of the turn. That segment is called "preparation" for the turn. So, it matters not that the skier comes down on the edge from on high. It only matters how high, and how well he can control pressure to get the edge to engage. OK, it also matters about the direction of the upper body and whether or not he tries to kick to start the ski slicing -- that kick is called "working the ski".

[milesb]

This is why we discourage discussions of TTS techniques, it just gets complicated and confusing and adds nothing to learning PMTS.

[BigE]

The problem with discussing TTS turns is that usually the practitioners themselves do not have a clear understanding of what they are looking at. So we'll get these "disagreements" because TTS is not a movement based approach. There is no consistency in the MA, as there is no baseline to judge against.

Anyway, back on topic:

After viewing that, It feels like I need a shower on the inside; I'm trying to forget the mental image before I visualize it into action. That's not right!

[oggy]

It seems to me that the second guy in the vid gets pretty early edge angles (and pretty high angles at that)? Here's a snapshot from 0:36:



(BTW is there a way to attach pictures to the forum post, or do I have to use a separate service to upload the image?)

[Baja1]

oggy, this image is a split second before yours, right in transition:



What information can you glean from this?

[oggy]

He's got some left-over counteracting from the previous turn (is that a "hip dump"?) so I guess this would add more rotation to the skis than what would be achieved by just tipping them. I suppose the outcome is that he's engaging the edges a bit later? Here's where the first spray of snow comes from the skis in that turn:



Compared to a Harald's turn (stylish royal blue outfit and apocalyptic sky courtesy of my media player):



So it seems that the spray starts a bit later than in Harald's turn, though the difference is minuscule. Harald's got noticeably better angles, though. Is this somehow connected?

His ski tips are also off the snow during the transition but it doesn't seem to affect his fore/aft.

[Max_501]

Compare to this video.

[JohnMoore]

I reckon it's the trousers. In Champoluc in Italy, where I've just been, there was a Swedish ski instructor who had similarly luminous lemon yellow trousers, and he was the best skier I saw all week in the resort. I'm trying to source a pair.