The holy Grail

[piggyslayer]

ydnar, SkierSynergy,

Sorry for barging in with 2nd post interrupting your discussion.
And sorry for 2 posts in a row.
I would like to emphasize SkierSynergy point on how different LTE tipping and ?pointing? movements are from slightly different point of view.

Ydnar: could you try this stupid experiment: bend your knees to mimic standing in ski boots (ski boots on the kitchen floor behaves a bit different than in motion on the snow, best seen if done in slippers) and first LTE tip the free foot, then point with the free foot instead. Notice how the stance knee is impacted by both movements.
You can do the same experiment on snow with ski boots and skis. Just pay attention to the stance leg knee position when comparing the two movements.

- Which of these two movements is less likely to strain the stance knee?
- Which tends to bend the knee to the inside?
- Would you agree that these two movements have dramatically different impact on knee alignment?
- If a skier can learn to ski efficiently using both movements which would be safer when subjected to forces in bumps or heavy powder?
- And finally, which of these movements may result in a hip/upper body rotation (not counter) in a learning skier?

I would be interested in learning what you think.


Robert

[tanman]

Just to add my 2c worth. I find that the javelin turn is probably the most contradictory to any foot steering methodoly , as you are pointing the foot in the opposite direction to the turn. The fuuny thing is that I have generated some of my best turn from using this excercise.

[piggyslayer]

The discussion has moved to Bode on Steering thread where we currently discuss all topics

Tanman you may want to repost in Bode's thread.

OOPS, I have use smilies which do not like to be hotlinked, I had to remove the link

[skier_j]

The discussion has moved to Bode on Steering thread where we currently discuss all topics

Tanman you may want to repost in Bode's thread.

Piggyslayer, I love the fighting smilies!

Thanks for a good grin this morning!

J

[Harald]

Sorry, I've been away so long, but business has been great. We are introducing PMTS to lots of new people through the business and on the slopes.

Man, I was just posting this when I saw the message on the other thread. Great!! This fits perfectly, so I'll post it here as Jay suggested.

Ydnar
I appreciate your willingness to offer the feelings you relate to and interpret in your skiing. Individuals have every right to evolve movements, sensations and feelings that work for them.

In PMTS we found through testing different biomechanics and experiments with communication, that a feeling or perception of a movement that may work for one person may be totally opposite or different for another skier. It is for this very reason PMTS isn?t based on feelings or other vague concepts like steering, which are fraught with ambiguity and that result in problems for skiers, limiting progress or years.

The PMTS movement development program is based in a series of accurate primary movements (this means first in the order of movement and starting at the bottom of the kinetic chain) that come from understanding and study of biomechanics. This is the ability to understand movement and reaction to movement for all skiers/humans. We are, after all, humans; we basically have the same functioning muscles. Some people may have better or stronger control of their muscles, but all human muscles and joints basically function in the same place and act similarly. The same movement may feel different for different people. That?s why we can?t base our understanding on how things feel. It has to be based on what we know about the movements from an objective perspective.

Ydnar you stated:
?Rotary movements do not have to originate higher up the kinetic chain than tipping movements.>?

This is a great example of what I said above. You may feel like you are using primary movements low in the kinetic chain to rotate/steer the foot, but this is not factual. If you reference any kinesiology or biomechanics text you will find an accurate description of muscles located at the base of the kinetic chain, how they function and what movements they can and can not perform. A couple of good references are The Atlas of The Skeletal Muscles by R. Stone and J. Stone (1990); Biomechanics of the Foot and Related Pathology. By C. Payne; Muscles: Testing and Function by F. Kendall, E. McCreary, and P. Provance.

From a scientific understanding of the body?s movements, we know that medial foot pointing is not a Primary Movement, but can result from the activity of foot inversion and supination. When the stance foot inverts this causes a secondary, or bi- product movement, which is a slight but very weak medial foot pointing. However, this action doesn?t create steering or foot rotation as you would like to promote. Inversion shifts pressure from the medial or big toe side of the foot to the outside or little toe side of the stance or outside foot of a turn. In other words, when you try to point the foot, it actually lifts the arch and shifts pressure from the inside edge of the foot to the outside edge of the foot.

The action of foot inversion is produced by the muscles on back of the tibia, they are the flexor hallucis longus, flexor digitorum longus and tibialus posterior. This is the only set of muscles that in any way point the foot from low in the kinetic chain.

If you research this correctly you will realize that rotary movements that have an impact on the skis in a meaningful manner require big muscles.

The only muscles that can or do contribute to toe pointing below the tibia or the ankle are the three muscles listed, that are located on the back of the tibia. The only way to point the foot is by using foot inverter muscles. The effect on turning is insignificant. Further, the action you are referring to also decreases edge engagement and can not be accomplished without consequences that will not only be too weak to effect steering, but will release the ski. Your assumption that foot pointing is a primary movement that needs not originate high in the kinetic chain is just not factual.

As your mother always told you: Don't point!!!

[jclayton]

That is about as clear and perfect a sum up of all the posts on pointing/foot steering possible . It should put all other arguments to rest but that is assuming logical thought processes from some of the antagonistic/ anonymous posters .

This should be repeated as a new thread . Skiing is also an art but proper scientific investigation is needed to dispel the damaging old myths .

[John Mason]

When people do this type of turn with diverging tip - or pointing the foot, if they are getting any effect at all they are doing it with their hip muscles high in the leg. This was actually advocated as a good thing to do on Epic a few days ago. That these hip muscles for turning are powerful and useful and can even let the skier create bowties on the snow while standing still. So we have two camps within people trying to understand PMTS that actually differ themselves. Some thing active steering is done with foot movements (ydnar), some thing active steering is created using the large hip muscles (bb).

We think both types of steering are either not effective (ydnar) or not desired (bb).

I think that sums that up.

People may disagree with this, but I believe it's an accurate summation of the different points of view related to active steering/pivoting actions.