A serious post ; foot initiation and CM movement at High-C

[jclayton]

Ok Harald ,
I brought up this query in a previous post and you said you would look into it in time . I'm posting this now so I don't forget .

When initiating a High - C turn you have said that your skis are still finishing the old turn but your body has already moved across into the new one . My question is , wouldn't this mean the upper body starts the turn when I have understood that the feet ( or ankles ) must always start it to maintain proper balance .

This upperbody movement is very clear ( to my untrained eye ) in the PMTS video n? 1 . In one frame Thomas Grandi on his first run quite clearly moves his upper body towards the centre of the new turn while his skis are still on their previous turn edges .

These takes are obviously a few years old ( note Von Gruenigens Emmenthal suit ) and the skis look a bit dated though the carves are very clean . The skiers do seem to be rather upright at transition . What would be really nice is an uptodate take of Eric Shlopy , say , with some movement analysis , explanation .

I have experimented a little with this move by inclining the LTE edge a little further uphill to initiate my CM movement down . The feeling is almost snake like .

[John Mason]

When initiating a High - C turn you have said that your skis are still finishing the old turn but your body has already moved across into the new one . My question is , wouldn't this mean the upper body starts the turn when I have understood that the feet ( or ankles ) must always start it to maintain proper balance .

(title a joke - of course)

Your key phrase that needs discusion is "upper body starting turns". You conclude this because of the phrase the "CM is already over the skis".

"Upper body starting turns", while used in the two footed release to generate initial rotary force, as you point out is not used in a high C carve. While there may be some effect, a weighted, carving ski will resist any twisting/pivoting force anyway.

It's simpler than that. Think of your skis being flat at transition for the moment before the new turns starts. There is that theoretical point where you're not turning either direction but between turns. Flat to the slope would mean flat on the slope. If your ankles and legs are lined up your CM is already over the skis and down the hill somewhat even at this point. If you're on a 30degree hill, you are over your skis at 30 degrees downhill from the plumb line of gravity. So you're indeed already into the new turn (as in inside the track of both skis where you will stay for the whole turn) and over your skis before the turn has begun. You have committed to the turn, done your release, activitly tipping the new inside foot (old stance leg) to help reaccelerate or keep the momentum of your CM going.

The Commitment part of this is, take that above picture and freeze it. You will fall. You're, after all, tipped at 30 degrees off vertical. But, the BTE will engage, g forces will build and your skis will catch your CM that went ahead of you for a moment.

It's interesting how this commit and trust the BTE to engage is a lot like simple walking. We reach out with our new leg. We are falling off our old leg. If our new leg did not catch us, we would fall. But we take this little leap of faith with every step.

It's still feet driving the whole thing, it's just the CM is already over the skis by the time the fall line is crossed. But this is not a rotational thing or source of energy for the turn, but like that simple step in walking.

At least this is this non-official non-spokesperson looks at this in his own skiing.

[jclayton]

Yes John ,
I understand you are talking about the float stage when the skis are flat to the snow and the CM is directly over them , this can be seen quite clearly in Haralds videos and books . It appears to me in the video I mentioned that this is anticipated somewhat , i.e. the CM is well over the skis while they are still finishing the last turn , before they go flat .

Also I don't mean the upper body starts the turn by twisting , it moves laterally , the apparent twisting motion in Grandi's turn I imagine is just to position the CM , not twist the skis .

[SkierSynergy]

This is not a reply to anyone's post so far. I was going to post this as a new topic today and then jclayton started this one so I'll just drop it here and see if it generates useful additional discussion.

I know that several people on this forum also post on Epic (I haven?t posted there, but I follow some of the discussions). There is a lot of discussion there about center of mass (CM) movement: is it necessary?, how much is optimum?, categories of turns based on CM movement patterns (cross-over vs. cross under, etc.), etc., etc. Some of that discussion also crosses over onto this forum.

I would like to share my experience about this issue and offer some references. However, let me start with a very direct statement.

I would recommend that you stop worrying about CM movement. In PMTS CM movement is an effect that is not directly controlled by the skier. The things that are directly controlled by the skier are the primary movements: lateral foot movements, the movements used for pulling the feet back, and leg flexion/extension. CM movement is not a primary movement. And that is why almost nothing is said about it directly in any of Harald?s books. In the PMTS instructors manual there is more reference to CM movement however, they are still just mentions as a part of other discussions and I think that every word in the manual will just reinforce what I am about to say.

Forget about CM movement. It is the primary movements that affect how the CM moves. Proper primary movements will result in proper CM movements.

Further, in terms of instructions, if someone asks me to move my CM more or not to move it so much, I really don?t know what that means. My immediate response is going to be: ?How? With what movements? On the level of kinesiology, what do you mean? What am I supposed to do with my body to make it happen??

Forget trying to control CM. Concentrate on the primary movements.

I know a lot of people use Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier 1 & 2 and like to refer to them, so I?ll first start with some references (or lack of them). If you look through the first book there are literally only 2 or three paragraphs where the issue is even mentioned and I think the quotes are important in their focus.

The first mention of CM is in Section 6-6 two footed immediate release (p.100).

In describing the photo montage, Harald states:

"The belt buckle on my suite, starting in the first photo sequence, starts on the uphill side of my boots then moves across and over the skis to the inside of the turn. Who said, ?move your center of mass? How does one do that?? None of this was achieved by attempting to move the body. It is the result of correct movements at the feet and the kinetic chain readjusting links higher up in the body to maintain balance."

I think the only other mention is in Section 8-1 Cruising, short radius turns (p.124).

Similarly, in this section, Harald notes:

?Gravity will help you bring your body from the uphill to the downhill side of your skis if you relax the leg muscles.?

That is, if you use the primary movement of flexion in the old stance leg gravity will aid in moving the CM across the skis and you will make smooth linked turns.

However, just before that description he reminds the reader:

?There is no need to be concerned with assuming or achieving a certain body position. Initiate the movements at the feet and let the kinetic chain determine what the rest of your body does.?

That is about it in the first book. Pretty clear. Concentrate on the primary movements and the CM will take care of itself.

In Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier 2, there isn?t any reference to CM movement until chapter 7. It is mentioned in Chapters 7: Use the force, 8: Weighted release, 9: The float and also in 11: Carving. The point in Chapter 7 is that the ?tension in the downhill leg and the edge angle of the downhill ski resist the turning forces [of the turn] and keep the body inside the turn. If the body is to move smoothly across the skis into the next turn. The most efficient way is to release the downhill ski by flexing the downhill leg and flattening the foot. If these two things are done the CM will move across into the next turn of it?s own accord. No other effort need be expended. He also lists a few of the inefficient methods such as pushing off from the uphill foot, etc.

It is the primary motion of relaxing the stance leg that allows the skier to take advantage of the momentum of the turn. On the very next page, he makes the point that these actions will quickly bring the skis to their new set of edges and also move the body into the next turn. Again, it is the primary movement that is the cause and the CM movement that is the effect.

In chapter 8, Harald praises the weighted release for it?s ability to commit or move the body into the new turn, but then there is a detailed description of the movements involved. Guess what? Those movements are flexing the weighted leg and gently tipping its foot to flatten the ski during release and tip it into the turn on engagement. To do the weighted release properly, the CM cannot be ?projected? or pushed into the new turn. ?The outside leg must relax and flex to begin the roll of that ski into the new turn. Again, the primary movements come first, the CM movement follows as a natural result.

I could continue with the other chapters, but this is already way to long for a single post.

I will follow up tomorrow with my personal experiences making the change from thinking about CM projection/movement to just thinking about feet and flexion. Harald and Diana have really made me work on this and I put in most of my time during the last 7 months or so working this issue alone. It has made a dramatic change in several aspects of my skiing and I?d like to share it. In the meantime. This should get some discussion going.

[Harald]

The finish and releasing of the turn can occur simultaneously while the skis extend the turn and carving action they are in. This is especially noticeable in high level skiers who bring a great deal of loading to the carving edges. The actual release for this turn is started by reducing pressure on the stance leg. This slight de-pressuring of the skis allows the foot and ankle to control and adjust the release. Pressure reduction is accomplished by slight bending, flexing or relaxing of the strong muscle contraction of the stance leg. I give you all these examples because some skiers are confused by one individual reference of how you release. With all these examples, it may be easier to understand the mechanics and translate a feeling of releasing into your own skiing.

The ankle and foot are the controllers of edge change and edge feedback. During the release the ankle and foot relax pressure that was applied to the side to the boot that kept the edge strong and in a carving action. While the ankle and foot are releasing and de-tilting or flattening the ski, the body begins to move toward the falline, yet the skis continue carving, but on ever decreasing angles to the snow. Ankle and foot edging changes and control happen as the relaxation of the leg takes effect.


The forces and pressure on the ski are reduced during this action, but the ski can continue on the carving path. I don?t think about releasing with the upper body or Cg, these are results from ankle, foot and leg influenced pressure changes on the skis. If at anytime the turn needs to be stretched or continued, pressure and lateral movement at the ankle and foot can be reapplied to the side of the boot. The body will react and reengage a full tilting or inclination due to the change in side pressure in the boot. The foot and ankle, control the releasing and edging/pressure sensations, to the side of the boot and under the foot.

I have discussed this relationship with numerous world cup racers. There seems to be agreement that the nature of turn response is based in ankle and foot movements creating pressure changes in the boot. Not all racers are taught or realize this activity. I think the mature athletes, who have studied their own skiing, come to this realization. It is rarely coached.

[Harald]

This is truly amazing, while I was writing my post to answer jclayton?s first question, five other posts appeared. Ski Syn, thanks for another clear and direct representation of how skiing works. In jclayton?s question, the skis are not yet flat, in fact they are still at a very high edge angle and pressured. This is not the float phase yet. John, you are right to make the distinction that the body does not start the turn. If there are upper body complimentary movements they are to reverse the hip in preparation for the turn, a counteracting movement.

We call these turns, "figure 8 turns", don't have time now, but I'll explain the idea later. This is a very high level racer turn, but also fun for the carver junkies. The name comes from my friend and former coaching mate Friz Vallant. Fritz was the head coach of the Austrian men's sl and gs ski team for five years. We worked, skied and coached together back in my racer days.

[John Mason]

Yes John ,
I understand you are talking about the float stage when the skis are flat to the snow and the CM is directly over them , this can be seen quite clearly in Haralds videos and books . It appears to me in the video I mentioned that this is anticipated somewhat , i.e. the CM is well over the skis while they are still finishing the last turn , before they go flat .

Also I don't mean the upper body starts the turn by twisting , it moves laterally , the apparent twisting motion in Grandi's turn I imagine is just to position the CM , not twist the skis .

I'm not sure I'm saying anything different, so I'll digress and see.

In a turn as your in the last 1/3 about to commit to the new turn, you often do a pole plant in the direction of the fall line. In a short radius turn this will be more to the side, in a gradual turn this will be closer to your ski tips. (this seems to take care of itself as long as the pole plant is down the hill) When I do this, I'm not leaning on the pole or pole blocking. It, for me, is more of a timing to just commit to the turn, keep my fore aft balance proper and go. That go, for me is, remove pressure from the downhill ski and crank the foot over. - or - Leave my pressure on that foot and crank it over anyway. As Jay points out, I don't think - now is the time to accelerate my CM or continue it's motion down the hill (depending on turn intent). Anything that happens with the CM is a result of tipping the foot.

With either turn style this tipping of the down hill foot along with the pole touch has me past vertical over my skis well before they are flat to the snow. Over is straight up. On a slope of 30 degrees, I'm over and basically falling well before fall line transition. At fall line my skis are flat, my body is way past vertical at this point. I'm all lined up and banked to take the pressure of the reengagement of the new stance ski. For a second there, though, there is no pressure from either the old turn or the new turn. I'm assuming this feeling is what is described as the float. When the new stance ski engages (not from some lower foot steering action or tipping to the BTE) because of the new alignment of my body caused by the the original tipping of the old stance ski that created the release, I'm all set to rock and roll into the new turn.

Sorry Jay. I'm not trying to confuse the issue and thanks for clarifying. How can you move the CM? You can't directly. The CM discussion was brought in because of two false premises that were posted on epic.

1. That your CM never should be inside your inside ski. (can we say wide stance)
2. That your own body momentum is enough to get your CM to cross over the skis, that no release is required or tipping prior to the fall line transition.

Because of those statements (and thankfully many over there rejected 1, but most still think 2 is true), I have been replaying my own turns and enjoying how a proper release initiated before the fall line transition, takes care of the grossly improper physics postulated in number 2 above.

I do think about how much I want to accelerate my CM, though I don't think of it in exactly that way, it is the result.

If I want to go from a lazy long turn, then whip off some real agressive short ones, at the transition between these to turn styles, ie comming off the last long turn and having intent to whip off a tight one on the other side, rather than gently releasing pressure on downhill leg and tipping it, I can dramatically release the pressure and tip strongly - or - I can leave the pressure on and tip it anyway. Either will almost snap me over the skis as opposed to the lazy long turn I'm exiting.

To me it feels like I'm being pulled into the new turn. I'm not pushing off to get into this more agressive turn. I suppose, I'm accelerating my CM by doing stronger moves, but I don't think about that.

I'll repeat what I posted on Epic about this for your comments. In a short radius turn you are controlling the strong pull of gravity down the slope. In order to get a net drop in speed of the CM going down the hill, you increase the difference between the s curve of the skies vs the path your body is taking. As this occurs you will feel a strong increase in pressure on your skis at the bottom 1/3 of the turn. This increase in pressure is your CM being slowed down. Because of this, if your goal is to have a passive re-engagement of your new stance ski, you must do something active to get the CM over the skis and to return some of the lost speed. You do it by doing a release before fall line transition. The tipping of the old stance ski and pole plant down the hill combine to get you set up for the next turn and do result, as a result, with an acceleration of your cm. This is in contrast to believing that you need do nothing and the cm will cross on it's own. If you do nothing, the speed of crossover will be too slow for the angles of the body to engage the BTE passively and you'll have to compensate with some gross smearing active leg steering.

I am aware that tipping a foot pulls you in that direction. I can feel this when I ski. I can control how much pull I get and match my turn intent. (I personally feel this much more in the weighted release and I suppose that is how it's supposed to be)

Perhaps I'm more aware of what my CM is doing than I should be. It's a result, but I know how to make it do what I want, with foot movements.

[John Mason]

I guess - one other point for discussion. I personally don't just focus on the feet. In that mental excersize of going from a long lazy turn to short agressive turns, the other way (sorry Jay) I get my body to do what I need it to do in addition to LTE foot tipping, is stance leg flexion.

They go hand in hand. But the stance leg flexion has the bigger effect. (much bigger effect)

If I was a specifist and only considered the foot movements without the whole leg flexion I could not ski.

[John Mason]

gosh - thinking about my last post - I need to rebalance that

Of course leg flexion has the stronger effect. So does throwing a shoulder.

Most turns you can make with just focusing on subtle foot movements altering balance. Leg flexion/releasing pressure/lifting to establish the new stance ski early has an increasing effect and is more of the equation the shorter the radius of the turns become.

In my own warped understanding, the way I think of it, and for my particuallar needs at this time, to make a good turn I:

1. See ahead to where I want to turn, visualize my path
2. Based on that pole plant down the hill with the wrist (angle will take care of itself)
3. Use the pole plant as my cue to remove pressure from the downhill ski while tipping it. The more dynamic I need this to be to match the path in my mind I tip more and lift faster.

As long as I time this correctly I will catch my falling self as the new turn begins.

At Mt Hood this summer, when we had a switch back in the course, that's where I'd get down a tad lower in my overall stance, then it was really more leg flexion getting the new turn set up then tipping. (at least the way I was doing them) But in most turns I'm more focused in free foot tipping than leg flexion. Though obviously both compenents are in all turns.

There, I'm now done debating myself.

[SkierSynergy]

Nothing to disagree about in the last few posts. So now, as you learned to make the change, what were some exercises, breakthrough movements, tricks, pieces of advice, etc. that anyone used/experienced to feel the difference and get things going in the correct order(lower part of the kinmetic chain first)?


John,

Without bringing over negative movements from Epic (please noone respond to this). I will say that one thing noone ever really considered in your description of the of the little toe edge hold on the old inside foot while releasing into the new turn, was that the two feet & legs can be doing two different things at the same time. They are independent after all. One can continue to tip the uphill foot onto it's little toe edge to hold the old turn while also flexing the old stance leg and inverting that foot to start the new turn. Of course you'll get a bit of an o frame, but I guess I can live with that.

Interestingly, the flexion on the new stance leg keeps the CM moving into the new turn, AND simultaneously transfers weight onto the old fee foot which is still tipped onto it's little toe edge.

I don't accept the definition of negative movement that was used to question the description you were offering, but even on the definition of negative movement that was being used over there, the movements I described don't qualify as negative. If you have to comment, just e-mail me off forum.

[John Mason]

The strength of that independent foot action that you are pointing out, is that you keep a ski carving - the upper ski. For a moment you may even be a tad bowlegged as this action helps lock in the release.

If you don't have the LTE locked in and just let both feet go flat by relaxing the ankle tension, then you'll have lost a pivot point that enhances the action of the tipping and flexing downhill leg. This LTE lock, prevents any type of sideways slide at transition so the body crosses over while the legs stay on their carving arc.

This key part of the SP and why it works so well. I have many ski books and except for HH's, Lito's, and Eric and Rob's book have not seen it discussed at all. (oh, forgot Craig McNeil's book, but that almost not a paraphrase it's so straight PMTS)

This peaks my curiosity. In the carvers as opposed to skis, there is no "flat spot" where the carvers wander. The carvers are gonna stay in their line with no help or need of a SP type move. I can still see it for the beauty of getting onto the new stance ski early to enhance the weight shift and the effect of "falling" into the new turn. This need to get the upper ski carve locked in, would be less in the carvers as they are locked in pretty much anytime their on the surface with any weight on them at all. Could someone if their not careful get a lazy but workable carver style together that would require reemphasis of the LTE upper ski importance once back on skis? In other words, it would seem, that since some of the best effects of the SP are less important on Carvers (avoiding a non-directional both ski flat spot) anyone using Carvers to enhance ski instruction might want to make a special point of making sure a SP style turn is employed since simple evolution on a carver may not ever discover that move.

[Rusty Guy]

[quote="John Mason The CM discussion was brought in because of two false premises that were posted on epic.
1. That your CM never should be inside your inside ski. (can we say wide stance)
2. That your own body momentum is enough to get your CM to cross over the skis, that no release is required or tipping prior to the fall line transition.
[/quote]

John

No one at epicski has ever said either of the things you just wrote. It is not true, not correct and patently ridiculous. How in the world would a WC skier complete a turn at the speeds they generate without their C.O.M. being inside their inside ski? Where in the world do you come to these conclusions?

SkierSynergy,

Your posts concerning C.O.M. as well as what you wrote about "primary movements are exceedingly cogent. My hats off to you.

[John Mason]

Rusty I answered you back on epic.

Number 1 was in reference to turn transition, not turns in all cases. You and snowdog had a whole back and forth discussion about this and snowdog coined what you were saying as "lateral neutral".

I did not mean in all cases at all times. I was not clear. In a PMTS style turn the tipping to engage the new stance ski comes from the body's position. You rejected this approach to turn initiation many times. You have been consistant in your feelings about initiating turns this way. You have often used strong sarcasim for emphasis about that point.
That is what I meant by item one you quoted.

Number 2 was repeated by Bob many times in that post on Epic and I answered you over there with a specific quote of Bob's illustrating this oft repeated concept.

Welcome to the forum!

[jclayton]

Wow,
thanks everybody , what I wanted was to clear up this particular point . I couldn't quite see how the feet initiate this particular turn , I now see it is done by an almost imperceptible release of the downhill ski .

This gives me something to work on now . This is the beauty of this whole system , concrete cues that can be directly applicable .

Gonna lay some tracks on the ashphalt .

[Rusty Guy]

I have never uttered the term lateral neutral.

The main reason I was so moved to post here is the eloquency of skiersynergys post concerning "fahgettabout" C.O.M. and rely upon what "you guys" refer to as "primary movements" of the feet.

I do believe strongly that all good skiing begins in the feet.

Thanks for the welcome!