Harb Carver prep for Bumps.

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Harb Carver prep for Bumps.

Postby piggyslayer » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:54 pm

I would love people comment on this. I started doing it today and may not have all the things figured out, but here it is:

The very first online bump lesson on http://www.harbskisystems.com is http://www.harbskisystems.com/olkm5.htm and it teaches linking short phantom turns.
This lesson does not involve bumps so I thought it may be appropriate for trying on Carvers.
Many skiers involve a lot of twisting/rotational impact on skis when they ski bumps. In fact if you read Epic, the common advice for skiing bumps by their experts involves rotating and steering the skis. I think that Carvers can be a good tool for getting into more lateral aspect of preparation for bumps, since, as we all know, rotation and twisting does not like Carvers or Carves do not like rotation and twisting.

Here is what I have done. I have redone a bottom part of my ducttape slalom and have placed markers 7ft apart, first 3 markers inlined with the fall-line and the consecutive once progressively tougher about 1 foot on the coordinate perpendicular to fall line. I have placed about 8 -9 of such markers. The regular slalom, in contrast has about anywhere between 15-18ft fall-line separation of markers and between 7-9ft separation in the perpendicular direction.

My goal is to deemphasize BTE when going through the 7ft dense slalom and focus on LTE as much as possible.

The placement of the bumps-like 7ft slalom at the bottom was also done on purpose. When I skate the ?regular? slalom, I tend to focus on one aspect of ski form on each run. For example on pole plant and nothing else and then on counter and noting else, and then on flexing and nothing else, etc.
I think one of the problems with training when bump skiing is that things happen fast and it is hard to find time for making adjustment etc and such focusing does not work that well. Placing the 7ft section at the bottom has the advantage that I make all the ?corrections? in the regular familiar part of the slalom on the top and simply hope to maintain the ?improved? focus when going through 7ft section.

7ft is a start, I think I can go much shorter, but the point is to not do too much BTE so I intend to shorten the distance slowly. The other direction, maybe I will start putting more perpendicular distance between the markers.

I am looking forward other people comments.
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Postby milesb » Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:53 pm

I always like to hear about experiments like this. I feel that is a great way to learn.
7 feet sounds about right, in real bumps the turns work out to be almost that big because they are 3 dimensional (think about drawing a line on a globe). Quickness is relative, but I wouldn't rank it up that high in importance in bumps, at least not until the highest levels. That is not to say that your drill isn't excellent, it is. I think that precision is more important. Maybe you could make a second set of markers 6-12 inches to the side of your current markers, and skate through them. Try progressively narrowing the path, and then vary the spacing of your original markers (instead of every 7 feet, make one 5 feet, then 6,etc...).
When you are in real bumps, you will be able to have the skis go exactly where YOU want them to go, this will minimize the jolts if you pick a smooth line. Also, you can practice the absorbing/extending action by pretending there are actual bumps, but be aware that this will probably look pretty goofy! Good job.
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Bumps on carvers

Postby Harald » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:03 pm

You are on track with your bump skiing approach. Like you described, I agree the old school approach to bump skiing, which never worked and always lead to frustration. Pivoting and steering at the transition or at the top of bumps is a catastrophic failure in bump instruction and I see it taught all the time. Early edge angle and high ski engagement are the only successful approaches to bump skiing and learning to ski bumps. The reason old schoolers don?t teach this and don?t understand it, is because it isn?t built into their technique, progressions or systems. We know that steering doesn?t lead to expert skiing. If you add a wide stance and two footed weighting to that approach, which we know are the corner stones of old school technique, you will be a frustrated skier until you find a PMTS instructor, book or lesson.

You refer to quickness in the bumps, which is very important, but the technique that leads to developing quickness is the Super Phantom. If you are able to finish the turn and stand on the uphill foot, little toe edge before you give up the energy from the turn, that energy will pull you into the next turn and give you a high C engagement. Because you are removing all impedance to moving downhill to the next turn with this move, you won?t feel rushed; therefore quickness will no longer be a problem. Skiers who are looking for quickness are usually late with their balance transfer and engagement. Take you moves up the arc, into the transition and you won?t feel rushed.

Skiers that learned by old school methods are stuck with the big toe edge death grip especially in the bumps. These skiers can?t release the edge. In an attempt to start a new turn the only option they have is to push the uphill ski to the new big toe edge, in effect a Stem Christie. The old school instructor will try to tell you that they don?t teach that. Unfortunately that?s what all their students end up with. They don?t even understand the impact that their faulty system has on the skiing public. I wrote about these issues with old school technique eight years ago in my first book and they still don?t understand it.

As many of you know and have seen at our camps, we can turn skiers like this around and get them on the right track for bump skiing, powder and steeps, in short order with PMTS technique.
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Postby jclayton » Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:08 pm

Harald,
a couple of points I dont quite understand , to change balance to the uphill ski and edge at the beginning of the Super Phantom you would have to have released . How do you keep some energy from the turn at this point , or rather how do you feel this energy , what is the physical cue ?

In the High C turn you mentioned that the body moves into the new turn while the feet are still finishing the old one . Wouldn't this mean that the turn is not initiated by the feet but by the upper body ? Again what is the physical cue to feel the foot initiation as separate from upper body moves ? I assume the feet still initiate even though I can't see how .
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Bump practice

Postby SkierSynergy » Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:49 pm

I have used two exercises for bump practice.

1. Cones in a line for quickness practice. What's most important here though is that the turn initiation is done with the LTE first and not both skis at the same time. If you think simultaneous, you will usually end up not doing the right sequence of movements when things get rushed. You will know you have it when you are carving and you suddenly have to do an emergency maneuver (for a dog, or car, or hole) and you do it to with the leading foot first toward the LTE rather than a breaking wedge movement to the BTE.

2. This summer I spent some time with an freestyle coach friend of mine in the midwest. We set out 3 or 4 irregular lanes of courses very close to each other. As we used them we gradually intermingled them to form a single pattern of "bumps." This formed a practice bump field. You could carve a single line, go with bigger truns going two troughs wide, switch from one line to another, etc.

This worked great for talking about the difference between J tuns and High C turns and the difference High Cs make in the bumps. It also worked great for discussing and praticing different strategies.

With a high C established early one can cut under the bump in various ways or flatten the trajectory to make the next bump easier/slower/faster, etc.

The discussion ends up being very similar to trategies for gates except at each cone you are faced with multiple choices about where you can go.

Every so often one of us would reset the bump filed and then everyone else wouold carve through them without preview or practice.

Good fun.
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Postby Harald » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:46 am

Harald,
a couple of points I dont quite understand , to change balance to the uphill ski and edge at the beginning of the Super Phantom you would have to have released . How do you keep some energy from the turn at this point , or rather how do you feel this energy , what is the physical cue ?

In the High C turn you mentioned that the body moves into the new turn while the feet are still finishing the old one . Wouldn't this mean that the turn is not initiated by the feet but by the upper body ? Again what is the physical cue to feel the foot initiation as separate from upper body moves ? I assume the feet still initiate even though I can't see how .
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Jclayton, I?ll answer the first of your two questions now, as the second one is more involved and I don?t have time to address it right now. Both your questions are excellent and address movements in the critical parts of turns.

If you remember that at the end of a turn your pressure loading, ski angle and body angles should be high. As you reduce or unload pressure on the outside ski, your pressure loading or bending of that ski diminishes. The outside leg is stretched or longer than the inside ski, the inside leg should be more flexed and possibly bent up and under your body. As you unload the outside ski, your weight shifts to the uphill ski, and your body begins to move toward the falline. The inside leg begins to extend and increase pressure on the little toe edge as the transition begins. The skis do very little during this phase, they continue on their respective edges and arc, but the pressure from the downhill shifts to the uphill. Weight or pressure transfer to the uphill little toe edge is something I use without thinking, I?ve developed it over the years and now it is very natural. If you watch world cup skiing in slow motion you will see this transfer used frequently. Also, read the thread (John Mason) about RTE, which will help explain the movements of transition.
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Postby jclayton » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:42 pm

So it's - release from stance ski BTE, transfer to uphill ski LTE , then release a little on uphill ski to roll over and engage new edges . Some of the energy has to be carried over to the uphill ski in order to release successfully from LTE to BTE ( on same ski ) . In deference to John Mason , that would then be RTRE .

That roll over from edge to edge on the one ski is a lovely feeling when it works smoothly .

Looking forward to response on second question .
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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:35 am

I just wanted to comment on this, because I sort of do not agree with the RTRE concept.
The way I understand it, supper phantom is about early release/transfer and NOT about rebalancing on the LTE which forces to go through another process of releasing, this time on the uphill ski.

My point is that once you released the stance ski you have put the forces in action and you will end up propelled into next turn. There is no voodoo involved on the uphill leg to do that. The hole super-phantom concept, as I understand it, is to do it earlier.

I am raising this issue, not only because of jclayton post?which maybe I am misinterpreting. There has been a big discussion on Epic forum classifying phantom and super-phantom moves as ?negative? and thus wrong. I think it is misunderstanding of these movements to claim that you actually move your CM back when you transition the weight to uphill (LTE) ski. You don?t move CM back, in fact you do it so CM moves forward.

Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
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Postby jclayton » Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:28 pm

Piggyslayer,
I was just trying to understand what Harald meant when he said he carries some energy into the turn after changing to the uphill ski and LTE . For there to be energy on the uphill ski after transition there must still be some weight on it which is released to an extent so the ankle can roll over and thus complete the Super Phantom . I didn't bring the CM into it as I was just trying to understand a small , finite part of the turn . If you read an earlier post by Harald he comments that people see his CM moving into the new turn while his skis are still finishing the old turn , i.e. before ankle roll over to the new BTE .

The balance on the uphill ski would not be static , holding the CM back and thus being negative ( a la Epic ) but very dynamic , moving downhill

The roll over would have to happen after a release from the edge so logically it would be RTRE . This of course over simplifies , Im just having a bit of terminological fun , I could call it RTRROEUS ( Release Transfer Release Roll Over Edge of Uphill Ski ) . I guess it should all flow seamlessly . I personally find the roll over on the uphill ski a powerful movement as the CM moves on down and it tells me straight away if Im balanced or not .

I dont feel any voodoo , it all feels like down to earth , feet on the ground stuff ( when it all works )

. Anything but "negative" .

I imagine you see the balance transfered in a mechanical way to the uphill ski which would result in a wooden action , i.e balancing too long on it which would result in the CM staying uphill .
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good description Jclayton

Postby John Mason » Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:14 pm

Good description Jclayton

Lets do the turn, without any conscious similtaneous transfer to the LTE of the uphill ski.

If you do that, and collapse your downhill ski, your uphill ski has zero contraction and is already partially collapsed anyway, your body will start to sink downhill - wasting that nice rebound you should be getting.

But, if you "controlled colapse" the downhill leg and tip it and catch the resulting vertical compenent downward that will result from that with your LTE of your inside leg then you will increase your "float" and maintain your body height vertically over the slope as your CM crosses over the skis. This lets you have full pressure on the new stance ski right away so that the moment the edges change as a result of the body cm crossing over the skis the new outside (but sill uphill ski) will engage it's BTE and catch you before you fall.

This is a very dynamic style of turn. There is no negative move to it.

If, on the other hand, you release / colapse your down hill ski and DO NOT also put the pressure on the uphill ski, that uphill ski will eventually engage it's BTE and eventually start carving but it will be much later in the turn. This is not near as dynamic of a turn and squanders the rebound of the skis. To compensate this is where the step off or push off move you see some people advocating.

Where the real SP component comes into it is you can also switch pressure to your inside uphill skis LTE before you start agressively tipping the downhill ski. The amount of delay is totally up to the skier and what they are trying to do. As an excercise you can do it way early (or just ski on the LTE of the inside ski and link turns). But in practice I don't do it ahead its more of a simultaneous action. The key, I think, is to make sure when you release the downhill ski (the pressure from it) that you put the missing pressure on that uphill ski at the same time (which will still be LTE at that point) as you roll the downhill ski into the new turn (which agressively helps pull your CM over your skis).

Of course, the PMTS progression has a drill just to get the feel of this action where you traverse on the uphill ski LTE with the downhill ski off the snow, then tip the downhill ski to commit and begin the turn. Most traditionalists would not like this drill.

What I don't get about epic is Eski is one of their primary 4 coaches at their ski events and has this same drill as the centerpiece of his book Ski the Whole Mountain. (with a very clear picture montage of the movements) They'll pick on HH all the time over there and ignore their own key membership that teach and use the same techniques. That makes no sense to me at all.

Piggyslayer - some references about this early weight shift style of turn and it's benefits can be found:

1. Anyone can be an expert skier 1 - page 110 and 111. Great photomontage here - one of the very best for seeing this turn in action. Note fig d - and Harald's description - "stand completely on the old free foot (skier's left)" In the context of the turn, this is much earlier than most people. This is being proactive about the weight shift to the new stance ski rather than Bob Barnes description of that developing that pressure in a way that would be more like the beginner two footed release taught in PMTS.

2. Page 101 in Lito Tejada-Flores book - Breakthrough on the new skis. He calls this move "Early Weight Shift"

3. Page 35 and 36 of Ski the Whole Mountain - by Eric and Rob DesLauries (Eric is Eski on epic). Page 35 shows the drill to learn and get the feel for supporting the turn on the LTE of the uphill ski. Page 36 shows how to use this to get a high carve going early in the turn.

Each of these authors put there own words to describe what is essentially the same movement pattern.

Interestingly, I have a whole library of ski literature, like Ron LeMasters etc. And except for these 3 authors, I don't see this key move explained, referenced or taught anywhere. If anyone has any other authors or references please pass them along.

Piggyslayer, if you don't have any of these books hit Amazon and get all 3. Sometimes it helps when you get other authors describing the same movement patterns as verbal descriptions are pretty hard to use to show a dynamic 3d movement.
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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:18 pm

jclayton,
My apologies. I have misinterpreted your words. In fact, I have admitted to possible misinterpretation in the previous post itself.

The reasons for my confusion have been:
(1) (minor, I understood if from the context) To me ?R (Release) ? stands for releasing weight and not releasing the edge.
(2) Primary Movements imply skier actions, in proposed RTRE the second ?R? would be a no-op on the skier part and thus should not be stated.

I guess my point is that some, if not many, view the Primary Movements incorrectly as ?negative? and causing CM to move back.
To a naked eye the second R in the RTRE from you post might have reinforced such opinions so I decided, maybe wrongly, to comment on it.
Skier does not do the second R, only the first. Doing second R implied to me some trickery happening to accomplish committing the turn after weight have been already transfer, but this is obviously not what you meant.


John Mason, what can I say: ?thanks for all the information? comes to my mind and then I am drawing blank.
I liked some of your other posts. Good luck in the approaching season.
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Postby milesb » Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:35 pm

John, sorry to sound like a broken record here, but it's all about dynamics.
I'm sure Harb will correct me here, but when learning this move sequentially (..ok, shift the wieght to the LTE of the old stance ski, then tip the new free foot to the LTE, then engage the BTE of the stance ski...)at a low speed, it will result in an uphill shift of weight. In actual linked turns, the CM can continue on its merry way downhill without stopping to balance on the LTE of the old free foot. Or you can balance and extend off of it, resulting in a pedal hop turn if you do it strongly enough. It's all good!
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