RTE - or is it TRE sometimes

[John Mason]

Question for the PMTS experienced folks out there:

Release/Transfer/Engage - the key things that occur in PMTS.

Now, that word Transfer. I'm having a bit of a problem with it. Does this mean transfer the edges, or transfer the CM over the skis, or transfering the balance between the skis.

In the Super Phantom, you actually transfer to the upper skis edge before or as you are doing the release as well as transfer the weight to the new stance ski (old ending turns inside ski).

I think I just answered my own question. The only way RTE would stay consistent thoughout all three PMTS releases is if:

transfer means from one set of edges to the other.

No wonder ski instruction is such a mess when even transfer can have 3 meanings. So in RTE transfer means moving to the new edges, thus the weight transfer to the LTE at the end of a turn as in the SP release, is not this transfer. This transfer occurs as a result of the stance ski's passive flattening (release) then passive tipping of that same stance ski which tranfers that ski to the developing turns inside edges and creates the engagement.

I think I got it.

Release (skis edges are released), Transfer (skis edges are switched to the oppisite side of the ski), and Engage (skis start carving the new turn)

[milesb]

John is on a roll.

[John Mason]

Nope it's Transfer Release and Edge - not Release Transfer and Edge.

I have come to the oppisite conclusion. In Harold's terminology, transfer refers to weight transfer. Transition refers to CM moving over the skis. Change edges refers to edge change. He does not use transfer in the sense of changing edges, and in fact, defines it as transfer of balance.

Then, the 2 footed release is RTE. That is, both skis are flattened then the transfer of weight occurs.

The Super Phantom is TRE. The order of events is:

1. weight is transferred to the upper ski's LTE at the bottom of the turn as the fall line is approached.

2. Then the release occurs moments as the lower ski - has had it's base of support removed. Both skis flatten as the CM is crossing over the skis.

3. The downhill/new inside ski - the free ski is tipped to it's little toe edge which creates passive tipping of the stance ski which will cause the stance skis big toe edge to passively engage creating the new turn.

(see pages 110 and 111 of Book one for excellent picture montage and description)

Steps 123 can be done with spacing between them or compressed so they are virtually similtaneous depending on the turn entry desired. But, given the terms of what release transfer and engage mean in the context of a PMTS discussion, this turn type is clearly TRE not RTE.

I'm curious about this because I've often heard and HH starts his forward stating skiing is all about RTE, but this bread and butter carving turn seems to not follow that sequence. As a student trying to fully understand different teaching styles this has been confusing and it shouldn't be in a precise system.

I could reconcile RTE with the super phantom if transfer meant the edges, but in the context of the books, clearly and consistently it means weight transfer. Thus, the SP turn appears to contradict RTE - which isn't a problem unless people studying PMTS thinks all turns are RTE.

Is my understanding correct?

[Harald]

John, you are braking down movements, specifically transitions, clearly and precisely. The original Phantom move was designed for every skier to use and to realize what it feels like to ski properly, without a bunch of mambo, jumbo tech talk. RTE in this case, the Phantom Move is, flex, bend, relax or withdraw the pressured foot/ski by getting the weight off. We have skiers pick the ski from the snow, so they can realize when they have actually made the movement. So in this case, the first move was to release pressure, which is the R in RTE, which also causes the transfer, leading to releasing edging, as the CG moves over the skis and toward the falline. As you tip the new inside ski, you achieve the E.
Release means get the pressure off, so you can get the edge changed.
If you do a Super Phantom, the uphill edge of the old inside is weighted or pressured before the CG moves over the skis. This is still caused by and constitutes a release of pressure from the stance foot, so yes, R is still first. Now, with a two footed release you still reduce the pressure on the old stance foot first, which causes the release. In a Von Gruenigen, although you don?t lift the old stance ski, you still have to reduce pressure to get the CG moving, so there is a release or reduction of pressure on the stance ski. This causes the transition and edges to release. If we look at releasing as: reducing or eliminating pressure then it will always be first. Even if you are up un-weighting or stepping, your movement begins with activity with the downhill or stance leg. Stepping or extending increases pressure first, and then transfer is achieved. The question becomes is extension the act of releasing. It doesn?t matter, as the explanation becomes an exercise in academics and not reality, which is where I don?t like to go with ski technique. I describe movements in the simplest terms possible for the situation needed. So is extending the leg, engaging or releasing, it depends on context. Again, I say, just do it, don?t get over involved in breaking it down to where it becomes meaningless.

I gave a clinic to a group of full cert instructors and I asked what does releasing mean to you? I got blank stares. Teach the movements, not the terminology, you will always be understood.

[John Mason]

So Release is not when the edges release from the hill - a flattening of the skis, but when the pressure is removed from the stance ski (which is the first action that will cause the release that would refer to releasing the edges).

In that case it's always RTE!

In other words - the release of the current stance skis edging action (even if at that point you have moved and are edging the very last moment of the turn on the inside ski as in the super phantom)

That's consistent.

And- transfer always refers to the weight transfer? (not to the edge change)

And transition to the CM moving from the inside of the old turn to the inside of the new turn that is just about to begin (you go over a tad before the turn starts)