Advanced Counter Acting: The Transition

[BigE]

Maybe look at this in relation to this discussion.

Does he counter act for the new turn? What happens when the leg begins to extend? What is the resultant effect on the skis.

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2594

Tipping stops/decreases when the leg extends. To prove the relationship of tipping and flexion/extension, try this simple exercise:

1) Stand tall, knees locked.
2) Tip your feet, knees locked.
3) Keep tipping your feet and flex your legs. As you flex, the tipping increases.
4) Keep tipping your feet and extend your legs. As you extend, the tipping decreases.

Isn't it amazing how the knees move without having to actively move using the large muscles?

[geoffda]

Ok, so here is a question: Is it still CA if there is no tension being held? When I release a dynamic short turn, I tend to move my torso directly down the hill more or less in the same direction it was facing when I was holding CA. However, because I'm releasing tension when I do this, there are no profound rotary forces introduced on the skis. I do quickly feed in CA as I start to tip, but I suppose on video the effect would seem to be that my CA was late. Is this what everyone is trying to describe?

[milesb]

The beausty of the terms counterbalance and counteract is that they tell you the function of those movements.
I'd say that if you have enough tension (from CA) to turn the skis when they are flat, it's too much tension. Maybe be more noodly and less springy?

[h.harb]

After I begin releasing, I don't feel tension in my hips, even if I'm holding the counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvFiUfAKcf8

I just threw this together for the topic, but you can see "I hold my counter in many of the arcs until my legs start to retract and cross. No pivot results. You may feel you have to reach neutral before this; everyone is slightly different. In my demonstration here, no pivot results. I don't have that issue, so I can delay counter without pivoting. I think it has to do with holding the edges connecting to the snow using your feet, while the skis are releasing from the edge angles. I don't feel coming to square after my skis are flat; creates a pivot for me in my transition, on this slope. As long as the movements are not too quick, rushed or over energetic. If you slow down WC slalom, in tight arcs, you'll see the same. Not so much in GS.

However in power and crud, I concentrate on countering at the beginning point of flexing, when my skis are releasing. As I said in my first post, some versatility for each situation is built into the system.

[SkierSynergy]

Maybe look at this in relation to this discussion.

Does he counter act for the new turn? What happens when the leg begins to extend? What is the resultant effect on the skis.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2594

This was the exact example that started my discussion with Harald. There is a skid to an edge in the top of the turn, but he is not rotating.
What produces it?

[MonsterMan]

Use the above analogy to get a handle on what is being suggested with counter acting.
A gear for the lower body tipping flat against the front of the knees. A gear for the counter acting around the waist. Calibrate it for the basic description. Now, move the gears a couple of notches so that the feet are moving into the new turn ahead of the upper body's counter acting movements. Tipping is first and more primary. Counter acting is secondary. As you roll through flat you are still in a counter acted position.

JP

What a great mechanical analogy.

Is this discussion leading to defining the, (for me), grey area, (spell it how you want), of where a long radius turn crosses over to a short turn? or as you Little Red Corvettes describe it from GS to slalom.

Think about the movements in the two footed release exercise from stationary and linked 2fr's and brushed carves and carved short turns. We maintain old turn counter action until almost the fall line of the new turn. So why would we questioning the ideas presented in a different way?

[geoffda]

After I begin releasing, I don't feel tension in my hips, even if I'm holding the counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvFiUfAKcf8

I just threw this together for the topic, but you can see "I hold my counter in many of the arcs until my legs start to retract and cross. No pivot results. You may feel you have to reach neutral before this; everyone is slightly different. In my demonstration here, no pivot results. I don't have that issue, so I can delay counter without pivoting. I think it has to do with holding the edges connecting to the snow using your feet, while the skis are releasing from the edge angles. I don't feel coming to square after my skis are flat; creates a pivot for me in my transition, on this slope. As long as the movements are not too quick, rushed or over energetic. If you slow down WC slalom, in tight arcs, you'll see the same. Not so much in GS.

However in power and crud, I concentrate on countering at the beginning point of flexing, when my skis are releasing. As I said in my first post, some versatility for each situation is built into the system.

Thanks, this is making way more sense to me now. In looking at some of the video & thinking about this more, I think I have some of the same thing going on in my short radius turns, and yes, I definitely feel that connection to the snow when I'm doing it. I think part of what makes it work is the lack of tension while moving through transition despite having some CA. Without the tension, the additional rotary forces that I was claiming don't seem to be there, so it makes sense that the transition can be controlled without a pivot developing.

That was the source of my confusion & why Jay's initial post wasn't making sense to me. Thanks for your patience everyone

[h.harb]

This may be no secret to PMTS followers, but it's a mystery to other instructors. "Extension of any kind, prohibits increasing tipping". It does increase leaning, which leads to pivoting. Go figure, that's how some instructors teach.

[arothafel]

This is great, Harald. This video really demonstrates the point. A picture/video is worth 1,000 words.

Keep up the great editing!

[SkierSynergy]

This is great, Harald. This video really demonstrates the point. A picture/video is worth 1,000 words.

Keep up the great editing!

AGREED!!!!

[SkierSynergy]

Some of this also came up in relation to a new short turn exercise that Harald was doing with his group at the Tech Camp. [Sorry, at present, this is a secret prototype exercise – only available at test camps.] However, it was developed because for many people, in the transition, there is a tendency to start using counter action before all of the available tipping is used. In that case, the tipping isn’t developed enough to resist the action-reaction of the countering movements and there is a tendency for a bit of a heel push engagement. The solution is not to slow down the counter acting, but to make sure there is more tipping/grip. Of course the exercise prevents one from extending, but its ultimate focus is to make sure one uses up the full range of the tipping before adding too much counter action.

[SkierSynergy]

Thanks, this is making way more sense to me now. In looking at some of the video & thinking about this more, I think I have some of the same thing going on in my short radius turns, and yes, I definitely feel that connection to the snow when I'm doing it. I think part of what makes it work is the lack of tension while moving through transition despite having some CA. Without the tension, the additional rotary forces that I was claiming don't seem to be there, so it makes sense that the transition can be controlled without a pivot developing. That was the source of my confusion & why Jay's initial post wasn't making sense to me. Thanks for your patience everyone

It's difficult to get across in words and Harald's great video made quick work of all this. That is some of what I was getting at with the distinction between holding a counter acting position and counteracting. Also, I think that the different parts of the body contribute differently. The hips clearly have to relax even if the upper body is held counter acted.

[BigE]

I've got to hand it to you Harald. You make the best demo's I've ever seen.

Well done! and Thank you.

[h.harb]

Thanks glad to be of assistance.

[kirtland]

Harald ,
I think there is an element to this, which is not being mentioned. One thing about your skiing in your demos, is that it is rarely passive, you make almost all your turns using your whole ski. My Austrian friend, the late Gene Landsman, when he would be trying to teach this, would say," you should go back to the store and get some of your money back, if you're not going to use the whole ski." You definetely always get your moneys worth out of the ski.
Although I've never seen you address it well or thoroughly, other than saying you SLICE, you work through the whole ski, as all good skiers do. So your stance ski although it is pulled back underneath you at the beginning of the turn, it is moving forward through the turn, helping to project you into the next turn. The way you put this video together is great and it demonstrates it well, by stopping at the different frames.
In Frame 1 your stance ski has the foot well back behind the knee and hip.
In Frame 2 your foot is advancing slightly
In frame 3 it shows the release and how your foot is projected ahead by the energy stored in the ski. It can be seen that you have worked through the ski and have used the tail of the ski, because for just an instant the tip of the ski is projected up. It shows how you moved your foot forward under your hip and through the kinetic chain it is bringing your hip forward, it also shows how you have been pulling your free foot back through the turn, so that when you release ,it begins to come back under you a little more. As a consequence your hips are beginning to come square to the skis although your torso is facing towards the fall line.
In Frame 4 It shows how your new stance foot is continuing to come back under you more and your new free foot is wanting to advance slightly, but you are controlling it, getting it back under neath you, it still either slightly ahead of your hip or underneath it. I would say you are now square to the skis (it's hard to tell from this angle).
In Frame 5 It shows your hips beginning to be countered to your skis ,although your upper torso is still facing more down the fall line.
In Frame 6 Hips and torso are both countered .

So although this series shows your upper torso generally facing down the fall line. What is happening down at your feet is affecting the kinetic chain only up to your hips, so that your hips square up and counter before your torso does. I think the way you move your stance ski through the turn has a profound affect on this.

I think this is the only movement in skiing that you haven't addressed and explained well. But neither has anybody else. It's just that all really good skiers know how to SLICE as you call it.
Kirtland