Pressure, pressure. pressure

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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Harvey » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:12 pm

I'm fairly new to PMTS but I think I've read that stance leg extension is only to keep the stance ski on the snow as the path of the ski moves away from the path of the body and not to push the body inside of the path of skis.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby onyxjl » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:29 pm

Harvey wrote:... and not to push the body inside of the path of skis.


Harvey, that is generally the idea. Unfortunately, like a lot of pmts essentials, just because your brain gets it doesn't mean your body always does :D.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Max_501 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:00 am

onyxjl wrote:...just because your brain gets it doesn't mean your body always does :D.


Ain't that the truth!
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Harvey » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:55 am

Max_501 wrote:I'll leave it to HH to answer the question of just how extended the leg should be, but I'll say that my mental target is to get as extended as I can without locking the knee joint (video shows that I'm generally much more flexed then my mental target).


Assuming Max's metal image is correct is it possible that the issue isn't a lack of allowing the leg to lengthen between the body and skis, but one of flexing more deeply than necessary to start the turn? Not saying anything negetive about flexing just wondering if it is being overdone for the nature of the turn at hand.

Trust me, I completely get the disconnect that can exist between mind and body. I see proof of it every time I type.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Ken » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:54 pm

Harvey wrote:I'm fairly new to PMTS but I think I've read that stance leg extension is only to keep the stance ski on the snow as the path of the ski moves away from the path of the body and not to push the body inside of the path of skis.
I started off with Lito's description that flexing the inside leg or extending the outside leg were, "six of one; half-dozen of the other." Not so. When I learned to flex instead of extend, things just worked better. I used to find myself sometimes forgetting to lengthen the outside leg at all. Skiing in crouch doesn't work, either.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby h.harb » Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:18 pm

Flexing has to be done at the right time, the right time is timing the release with a high point of pressure and completion of the arc, combined. Over doing flexing at the right time, serves to create retraction, which makes you release and transition faster. Flexing aggressively at the wrong time, early, only serves to put you into the back seat and kills the energy from the turn. That puts you in the PSIA mode, giving you the alternatives of extension and steering, the only movements left to get you out of the arc.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Kiwi » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:51 pm

To plagiarise HeluvaSkier comments in another thread there is a book in Harald's post directly above. IMO this is one of the many nuggets of gold to be found on this forum.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Mac » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:48 am

Ken wrote:
Harvey wrote:I'm fairly new to PMTS but I think I've read that stance leg extension is only to keep the stance ski on the snow as the path of the ski moves away from the path of the body and not to push the body inside of the path of skis.
I started off with Lito's description that flexing the inside leg or extending the outside leg were, "six of one; half-dozen of the other." Not so. When I learned to flex instead of extend, things just worked better. I used to find myself sometimes forgetting to lengthen the outside leg at all. Skiing in crouch doesn't work, either.


Ken, you might want to go back and recheck what you thought you heard Lito explaining. What Lito said in that segment was that "shifting your weight onto the new outside ski is the same as taking your weight off the old stance ski, six of one, half a dozen of the other." He went on to explain that with shaped skis, it works much better to focus on lightening the new inside ski. In all of Lito's books and videos, he refers on several occasions to a flexing move of the old stance leg, but I have never heard him advocate or refer to an up extention or push off move of the new stance leg to launch the start of the new turn.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby ChuckT » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:09 pm

"shifting your weight onto the new outside ski is the same as taking your weight off the old stance ski, six of one, half a dozen of the other."


Is this accurate in high performance carve turns? Statically your weight is supported either by the outside or inside ski, so shifting weight onto one is the same as taking it off the other. But in a fast carve turn, isn't there a float right after the release by flexing the old stance ski? At that moment, there should be very little pressure (or weight if you will) on either ski; regardless of the shape of the ski, weigh shifting does not happen when you flex the old stance ski to release unless you push on the new stance ski which is not desirable. Focusing on weight shift, which I did until last year, was not effective for me. The mental image I have (not sure if it's correct) is that the pressure on the stance ski increases to the max right before the release and goes to zero right after the flex to release. The pressure on the old inside ski stays zero (or very little) until after the float and starts increasing as the old stance ski is tipped to the LTE, not a weight shift at the turn transition. My experience is very limited and I would love to hear more from the experts.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Mac » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:37 pm

If you want to hear from "the expert," lets hope he's in the house! All I can give you is my take about what goes on. But I do know that when you are at the transition of a carved turn, the skis must go from being on their uphill edges to the downhill edges, and this must happen before the turn actually takes place. In other words, you should be on your downhill set of edges while the skis are still pointing to the side of the trail, a split second before the skis start to turn downhill. In order to get this in motion, you first have to release the big toe edge of your downhill ski by relaxing the stance leg, followed by a flexing and lightening action that will cause the old stance ski to flatten while balance is transfered to the new stance ski. There is no need to straighten or extend the new stance leg, this will happen by itself later in the turn. This is all part of "being active with the free foot, and passive with the stance foot." The old stance foot continues to flatten and then is tipped to it's little toe edge to engage the ski edges for the next turn. This tipping movement of the free foot to the LTE will cause the engagement of the big toe edge of the new stance ski without any up extension or push off move. The flexing of the new free foot leg will cause the new stance leg to extend to maintain contact with the snow. In effect, you are making the stance leg longer by making the free foot leg shorter. As the skis roll from their uphill edges to their downhill edges, at some point they will both be flat to the snow. In a long GS type turn, this will happen more slowly, balance transfer can be more subtle, as the turn takes longer to develope. In shorter turns or in bumps in particular, this all must happen in a shorter time frame, where I find that a more pronounced lifting and tipping of the free foot is an advantage. But regardless of whether the free foot is lifted or whether it remains on the snow, at some point in the transition, both skis will come flat to the snow if the movements are executed properly. Once again, I don't claim to be an expert on anything, this is only my take as to what goes on in the transition between turns.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby ChuckT » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Mac,

Your take of what happens in a properly executed carve turn is very nearly the same as my understanding (not to say that I can actually do it). My objection - perhaps I am splitting hair here - is to Lito's saying about shifting weight. What Harald showed in ABCAES2, which I had not seen it in Lito's or any other book, is the float. At that very moment, the skier is flying, weightless, or more precisely have very little pressure on the skis, and it does not make sense to talk about weight shifting at that instant, which is a split second following the release. I think Lito's "six of one or half a dozen of the other" is not accurate for PMTS carving.

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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby milesb » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:07 pm

Short answer- Lito does not teach PMTS.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Mac » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:15 am

Yes, I'll agree with that. There is no direct mention of the float in any of Lito's stuff that I know of, although I think it tends to happen just the same. The question I see here that may lead to some confusion is whether both skis have to stay in contact with the snow in order for the float to occur, or whether the float can still exist if the free foot is lifted off the snow as in the Phantom Move. While Lito's teachings are not totally textbook PMTS, there are a lot of similarities, IMO, as there are with some of the Delauriers stuff, etc. I think some of the differences are just in the terminology. But once again, I'm not trying to make a case for anything being right or wrong, I'm just trying to explain it as I understand it.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Mac » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:25 am

Chuck, just keep in mind that if you go back and watch that segment of the video, Lito was not advocating the "six of one, half a dozen of the other" approach either. He went on to state that while both technically accomplish the same thing, it is much more effective with shaped skis to focus on the lightening of the free foot.
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Re: Pressure, pressure. pressure

Postby Max_501 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:01 pm

You can float with both skis on the ground, one ski on the ground, or both skis in the air.
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