Another great example of PSIA lessons

[ginaliam]

But...

LAGLIDER and marcopolo are right about the fact that neither Gurshman nor his supporters brought these videos to the PMTS faithful, nor did they solicit or encourage anyone here to follow GG's lessons...harald dug it up on the web and posted it for ridicule. Why?? Gurshman isn't a PSIA guy, and he's not part of epic, or the Summit County Instructor Elites who have bad blood with HH. He's a coach, evidently a very high level one who has worked with skiers of a higher caliber than anyone on this website. Some folks like this sort of skiing..so be it.

Look, like most who post or shadow this website, I really appreciate HH's books and PMTS-but what's with the endless seek and destroy missions to continually drag up some other instructor's youtube post and encourage folks to senselessly tear it apart??? So, you don't like his approach-that's why you're all already turning to this forum, isn't it? Why the daily defamation of all other ski instructors not in the fold?? And really, save for a handful, who has the chops to bash Gurshman anyway (other than harald) ?? No one I've seen here (certainly not me-that guy has a lifetime and a half of skiing on me).

[h.harb]

Below is the MA of the "You Tube" slalom turns that were referenced in a post that I think started this whole deal. What I did in my post is MA, based on Tarnby’s comments "What am I not seeing". I posted this because Tarnby, stated (in reference to GG coaching, videos and website) this was great WC skiing info. After I did some careful analysis I determined based on the following MA, that it's not great WC "type" skiing or a facsimile thereof.

And I also found much of the information is misleading, without direction and detrimental to skiers. It is my obligation and right to comment. When I comment, I don't base my comments on a or on my belief system. I don't base what I see on what appears to me or looks to me like a "type of skiing", whether is be WC skiing or PSIA skiing. That is just not an accurate way to analyze skiing of any kind. And I leave that type of analysis to PSIA and skiers who want to "believe in" the image they see. I work and analyze the movements being used and the results that those movements have on the skis and on the balance of the skier.

So here is my MA again.

Hips in the backseat, there is no forward movement to pressure the tip of the ski, his hips are back in the critical parts of the arcs.

These are side cut turns, not pressured ski bend turns, therefore not applicable to slalom racing or turns.

NO finish to the arc, these are half turns.

Angles are too weak for slalom turns and the energy and quickness is even too passive for short edge set type turns.

This skiing therefore is not an example of what it is billed to be. Neither are other examples based on exercises I have seen put up by this coach.

If anyone can refute these points of MA let this discussion begin here; based on factual descriptions of movement. This kind of bickering that Laglider puts up, doesn’t get anyone anywhere. He is voicing one opinion, and one that I see is based on an incomplete education and not in accurate movement analysis, but on an image.

[h.harb]

drag up some other instructor's youtube post and encourage folks to senselessly tear it apart???

The reason we put up examples of horrid ski instruction is for the benefit of skiers who want to know the difference. The general population of skiers don't know the difference between good and bad sking, neither do most ski instructors. If that isn't obvious to you by now you are reading the wrong forum. The comparisons (you call:"senselessly tear it apart") that are put up here are neither senseless or tearing apart, they are correctly analyzed examples of skiing movement. And with the way they are analyzed on this forum, the skier can read an informed, educational post about what is poor skiing and incorrect skiing methodology, and that is still fair game.

So, you don't like his approach- that's why you're all already turning to this forum, isn't it? Why the daily defamation of all other ski instructors not in the fold??

Just a little over reaction here! We have looked at two at the most three, You tube, bad examples of ski instruction and contrasted that with examples of proper skiing to compare it.
It's not about the fold or that PMTS is better, it's about bad instruction going out to thousands of uninformed, helpless skiers.

And really, save for a handful, who has the chops to bash Gurshman anyway (other than harald) ?? No one I've seen here (certainly not me-that guy has a lifetime and a half of skiing on me).

I'm sorry you feel that way about the others that post here, I find that the majority of members here have more than adequate depth of knowledge and ability to do rational MA on the skiing likes and coaching information put up by the videos in this thread, especially the one I first put up that was later removed from You Tube.
I would surely take skiing movement MA from our forum posters before I would from the drop in visitors we encounter from time to time.
What does it tell you that the video I critiqued was removed? It tells me that it was bogus and that even the supporters (friends) of that instructor, told him he'd better remove it because it was bogus. It also tells me, we just did skiers on the world wide web a great service..



You may think its "sensless tearing apart" but you are one who is benefiting from exposing the difference between, blatant, bad, instruction, from correct instruction, which you may have been trapped in or could be trapped by, in the future. If it were not for the education you are receiving here; you might appreciate posts that describe bad instruction. Someday you might make an educated decision based on these posts. The time and effort many are putting in, to help skiers become educated, fills these pages.

I guess you wouldn't report or expose a bad doctor, or a doctor advocating damaging treatment on the internet, and harming patients?

[Ken]

ken,
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHR_AA8Vajw

This is the style GG teaching, and, I could be wrong, but it looks to me very close to GG's demos (different speed and intensity, of course). HH's demos and PMTS could be great, but they are very far from WC skiing.
I like the fact that GG accepts all kind of systems (including PSIA, PMTS, etc) as long as they do not proclaim teaching of WC skiing elements.

Well...I like GG's skiing about as much as I like his pants.
I don't want to ski that way. Pallander has the skill to take risks and pull off successes that make him go faster. I don't have that skill. I need a more solid technique. I want to ski with the same basic fundamental movements that Grange, Rocca, Riesch, Vonn, and the other great slalom skiers use. I don't ski at the speeds of GS racing, so I don't need to handle the forces they encounter. I seldom ski at the speed of SL racing....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6zwzfh5XRc

[A.L.E]

Two seconds on youtube finds CB happening everyhere in WC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1wPL90UdLQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXkfdQocYj4

[h.harb]

Can anyone who has sensed the benefits of PMTS, tell me where leaning into the turn at their upper bodies at the top of the arc will help their skiing?

[Max_501]

Two seconds on youtube finds CB happening everyhere in WC:

And its easy to find turns where CB is used well above the gate. Here's two guys setting up for the same gate. Notice the amount of CB they are using.

[Bolter]

Can anyone who has sensed the benefits of PMTS, tell me where leaning into the turn at their upper bodies at the top of the arc will help their skiing?

A rhetorical question that needs an answer . . .

No, I can only see the errors that will result- imbalance, inside ski pressure and skidding.

GG is very close to committing all the incorrect movements of PSIA Tech. Extension, projection, square to skis, two footed (inside ski pressure), imbalance and all leading to Rotation.

IMO the omission of tipping as a integral part of his Tech will have his young racers leaning, steering, skidding and flexing to check (phase 3) in no time at all. I see this play out on the hill every day.

The more I think about it GG is focused on the gross movements and is infatuated by inclination in phase 1 as his unique discovery- "the panacea of WC skiing"- a shaky place to hang ones hat.

[h.harb]

Isn't it funny how anyone can come into the internet and make statments that try to refute what real coaches see and experience everyday? Bolter, My observations exactly and I have the same observations about recreational skiers, except even more. So if you want to ski as Bolter pointed out

No, I can only see the errors that will result- imbalance, inside ski pressure and skidding.

go ahead and use some of the WC techniques espoused by so many coaches on the internet.