Another great example of PSIA lessons

[Ken]

As a PSIA L3 instructor and personal friend of GG I do not feel exactly welcome on this forum

laglider, I urge you to stay involved here. I'm involved in both PSIA and PMTS skiing and instruction. I've experienced the differences. I deplore the lack of civility on any forum, and I hope you will stay here and involve yourself. Please ask your questions and make your statements in an open, inquiring manner, and please don't be defensive of anything you're presently doing. If you'll try the PMTS movements in your own skiing and in your instruction without blending in PSIA movements, I know you will like the result.

Keep in mind that all the major players in the PMTS organization are former PSIA members and most are L3 or higher. I've trained with both groups. I've seen the rapid improvement of skiers using PMTS techniques, and been responsible for a couple, and I've seen friends' extremely slow improvement from many lessons and clinics with instructors considered the best PSIA coaches in this region. I've spend a day with a top PSIA coach and gotten little--except a lesson in how not-to-teach. I've spend a day with PMTS coaches and greatly improved my own skiing and seen the great improvement in the skiing of my companions. If you get the opportunity this winter, consider how skiers with less than superb natural athleticism get stuck at a certain level with the PSIA techniques, and, if you get the chance, see for yourself how skiers of equal ability ski better more quickly using PMTS techniques. It would take a leap of faith for you to trust me on this. It works every time.

Frankly, I've never found anyone in PSIA who can tell me why the ski the way they do, nor why recreational skiers should have different fundamental movements from racers' fundamental movements. HH tells everyone exactly why each of his techniques is effective, and he clearly explains the biomechanics to back it all up so even a chucklehead like myself can understand it.

Stick around. Ask any questions and make any statements that help improve everyone's technical understanding of our sport and the movements in that sport. If some of your deeply held beliefs from your many years in the PSIA system are skewered, please work around any feeling of offense and ask why the new info is more valid than your old info.

[milesb]

What, I think, is not good for the sport is when one well respected coach place another coach with extended coaching experience and big number of followers on the list of 'skiing charlatans'. MAJOR DISAPPOINTMENT ;(((.

If Harald is right, is it still a "MAJOR DISAPPOINTMENT" ?

[laglider]

ken,
usually I do not get involved in ski forum discussions for the reason you just have mentioned - luck of civility.
I understand that people feel very passionate about the sport, many of them have extensive skiing and teaching experience and want to share it with the rest of fellow skiers. But too often it gets unpleasant, to say the least. I've decided for myself that I do not want it. It's enough for me, as a board member, to participate in my condo association forum .
This time I made an exception because I was really disappointed to see main contributor of the forum got involved in this.
Again, I accept movement analysis list, I do not accept 'charlatans list'.

I have to say, I share your pain and frustration concerning PSIA. I still believe that PSIA serves its main goal - teach general public basic skiing, so people can safely enjoy the sport. I like my job and I am proud to be part of this system. But at some point you start to feel that you are not progressing as a skier and as a teacher for higher level students and PSIA coaches are not helping anymore.
I am glad that you found HH and PMTS system which, as you feel, moving you forward. I found GG and I like the results I am getting. I personally like the way GG skis, I like his standards of skiing - WC, and I feel that his articles and demos make sense for me. I saw HH's clinic at Hintertux this spring. I've missed HH skiing, but I was not impressed with the way participants were skiing and the way they were taught. May be they were doing everything right, but this is not the way I personally would like to ski. So I was not interested in PMTS system.

You post convinced me that the system, which has such devoted followers, deserves another look. I will read about it and stick around to follow discussions. Do not plan to participate, though.

[laglider]

ken,
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHR_AA8Vajw

This is the style GG teaching, and, I could be wrong, but it looks to me very close to GG's demos (different speed and intensity, of course). HH's demos and PMTS could be great, but they are very far from WC skiing.
I like the fact that GG accepts all kind of systems (including PSIA, PMTS, etc) as long as they do not proclaim teaching of WC skiing elements.

[Max_501]

HH's demos and PMTS could be great, but they are very far from WC skiing.

Examples of the PMTS Essentials can be seen in any WC race.

Its easy to find many examples of early CB/CA movements as well as the rest of the Essentials.

[HeluvaSkier]

HH's demos and PMTS could be great, but they are very far from WC skiing.

Before we have a roast of laglider... I think you should be very careful about making these kinds of blanket statement about PMTS skiing and its similarity to WC skiing. It is also important, that when recognizing "technique" you are looking for what is there, and not only what you want to see (especially when investigating something new - assuming you are here out of curiosity).

I'll agree with you that Kalle's demonstrations show a visible lack of counteracting and counter balancing in most of the turns (not all), but for every example put up of this kind of skiing, we could produce many times the number of examples that show counter-acting and counter-balancing movements - especially in the lower parts of the turn where on an icy racecourse those movements are often 100% necessary. Despite these movements not being part of Greg's technique that he teaches (openly denies their use in modern skiing), I think you would be a fool to argue that they are not used in racing at the highest levels. Understanding WHY they are used, and perhaps why it would appear they are not being used, is more important than simply claiming the existence or non-existence.

The best advice I can give to you (before you step in it big-time here) is to read this thread. The reason, is that it might help you understand [in PMTS-speak] the apparent use of "inclination" on the WC. I hope you take the time to understand what is being discussed here, because so far there is little evidence of that in your posts. Regardless of your personal feelings or allegiances, understanding PMTS will make you a better skier.

Later

Greg

[Marco_Polo]

As Mr. Gurshman’s literary agent (and an expert skier who has studied with several WC coaches in Europe), I would like to clarify a few things in this thread.

The initial post of HH that began this thread misrepresents Mr. Gurshman's teachings that are on his website Youcanski.com. HH has taken one drill GG posted on YouTube.com out of context, mocks it and implies that this is representative of:

1. As something part of the PSIA system
2. GG’s skiing ability
3. GG’s coaching & teaching

First, Mr. Gurshman’s coaching & teaching on Youcanski.com is neither based on PSIA pedagogy nor PSIA technique. The technique he teaches is based on his over 20 year experience on the World Cup. As such, it is a refinement of basic technique as it has evolved over the past two decades, but one that emphasizes what GG considers to be the essential elements of high level skiing—in particular, racing.

Second, GG has posted examples of his skiing both on Youcanski and on Youtube that very much parallel the technique examples of WC racers on this part of his website: http://youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm. There may be variances between each skier here, but that is one of the characteristics of human performance, even at the elite level. However, the basics that GG advocates (and demonstrates) on his website are in these examples.

Third, GG deserves more respect than the mocking and inaccurate characterizations of his coaching & teaching in this thread. Moreover, those who question his qualifications and his resume are simply wrong. He has and continues to work extensively on snow with various World Cup racers and national ski federations.

One poster here even said that he thought GG’s book, published in Russian, was a bad book. Did that poster read the book, which has only been published in the Russian language?

What is clear to me from reading these posts is that many people gloss over Mr. Gurshman’s articles but do not take the time to understand them. It's fine to ski using PMTS, but it is not fine to hold it as the paragon of ski technique when there are other demonstrated options that are both successful and sound in their use of the principles of sports science.

Sincerely,

Marc A. Cirigliano, Ph.D.

[milesb]

Sorry, we just were not impressed by Mr. Gurshman's skiing. It is what it is, deserving of respect has nothing to do with it.

[BigE]

Do you really think that Greg Gurshman does not know about angulation?

[HeluvaSkier]

Do you really think that Greg Gurshman does not know about angulation?

He knows about it and is pretty clear about not teaching it (argued against it in fact) - at least the last time I read the content of his site he was... so unless something has changed I don't think he considers it part of what he teaches.

[Max_501]

He knows about it and is pretty clear about not teaching it (argued against it in fact) - at least the last time I read the content of his site he was... so unless something has changed I don't think he considers it part of what he teaches.

The following GG video starts with

Angulation Anyone? Guess No...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phDrDpxj05Y

[laglider]

O boy, looks like I am getting sucked in this discussion. And already risking to be roasted...

The main reason, which I've explained already in my first post here, was the fact that one coach put the other one on 'charlatans list'. I want to repeat 'coach'. On many sites you can find many dedicated ski amateurs criticizing GG, his book, his site, his skiing... you name it. This is perfectly fine, just builds excitement for the sport (and it gets really funny sometimes).
But I did not expect it from ski professional. As I said, BIG DISAPPOINTMENT, and it has nothing to do with different ways of teaching skiing, it's more about true professionalism.

My second post was a response to ken. He feels that PMTS is really helping him with his skiing. I respect his choice, but explained why I was not interested in the system - I did not like the way people were skiing on HH's clinic in Hintertux. At the same time ken got me interested in the system in general. So I checked some clips on youtube with PMTS or HH in titles. I did not like skiing again. I am not saying the skiing is bad or wrong. May be it's not best examples of PMTS anyway. But somehow it does not fire me up to pick up Essentials book. Just a personal choice.

My third post was an attempt to show an example of WC skiing, which GG is preaching and teaching.
After working with GG I've realized that WC skiing could be very different. Bode Miller is a great athlete with long list of victories and very personal style of skiing, but you will never find samples of his technique in GG's articles or clips compilations. There are some other great athletes with personal style of skiing which are missing in GG's book or articles.
GG's personal style of skiing (and teaching) looks very similar to me to WC style of skiing he is using as a standard.
After watching HH's skiing clips I could not find any resemblance to any of WC skiing I've seen so far. May be there are many elements of PMTS system playing major role in skiing of WC racers, but I do not see any WC style of skiing in HH's demo clips.

This post is about the fact that I personally do not see any point to discuss what system or what coach is better. Everyone should try different systems, coaches, skis, boots, etc. Find whatever and whoever is working for you and stick with it.
Just do not bash the head if someone has different opinion and try to be cool if you are part of an industry.

[Max_501]

Huh? HH rips WC turns whenever he wants...as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdjRrS6kHQE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHGbwKm89Jw

[Max_501]

One poster here even said that he thought GG’s book, published in Russian, was a bad book. Did that poster read the book, which has only been published in the Russian language?

Like I said, I don't want to comment on Gurshman, sorry if I did. I tried to stay neutral. On the other hand I did read his book in Russian and you may say there is no contradiction in GG vs. HH approach and I would disagree here. Like I said, maybe GG does know his stuff, but I think you can not have more different approach to describing skiing (again on comparing Essentials book to Gurshman book).

[Bolter]

GG's personal style of skiing (and teaching) looks very similar to me to WC style of skiing he is using as a standard.


After watching HH's skiing clips I could not find any resemblance to any of WC skiing I've seen so far. May be there are many elements of PMTS system playing major role in skiing of WC racers, but I do not see any WC style of skiing in HH's demo clips.

Style? As in the dress, the look, the Team uniform, bent poles, a tight hat?

Please look deeper. The "look" is a lure, a facade, in short- window dressing!

Movements are the keys to evaluating teaching systems.

Inclination is not a favorable building block, in fact it is an inhibitor to progress. You are right, GG (your mentor) is a stylist (that is not meant to be complimentary). Conforming to "Inclination begins all turns" by design will guarantee a dead end and is a distraction from the core movements necessary to progress and grow.

CA, CB and a few other ESSENTIALS can develop un-stylized functional skiing at WC levels.

JR