Another great example of PSIA lessons

[Max_501]

Your photo shows it being used as part of a powerful recentering movement at the exit of turn one-- like getting up from a low chair. It's used the same way, but looks more like a pole plant movement in turn two.

Another interpretation is that racers move their arms in and forward of the torso so they don't hook them on the gates (doesn't apply to SL).

[HeluvaSkier]

Your photo shows it being used as part of a powerful recentering movement at the exit of turn one-- like getting up from a low chair. It's used the same way, but looks more like a pole plant movement in turn two.

Another interpretation is that racers move their arms in and forward of the torso so they don't hook them on the gates (doesn't apply to SL).

I'd say it is probably a combination of both... The inward movement is the gate clear and the forward/outward movement is part of the re-centering in transition to set up for the new turn.

[Max_501]

I'd say it is probably a combination of both... The inward movement is the gate clear and the forward/outward movement is part of the re-centering in transition to set up for the new turn.

Do you think a racer would use that pumping arm movement if they didn't have to worry about hooking the gate with their arm?

[HeluvaSkier]

I'd say it is probably a combination of both... The inward movement is the gate clear and the forward/outward movement is part of the re-centering in transition to set up for the new turn.

Do you think a racer would use that pumping arm movement if they didn't have to worry about hooking the gate with their arm?

I think it has its use in promoting good CA as well. if your inside hand is high and forward it allows your hips to also have the ability to be in a very favorable position. So the answer is... perhaps I guess. I don't know that it would be such an extreme movement as WC skiers display but I suspect that some elements would be there.

[h.harb]

Ok, acknowledged, I’m way out of the loop on the acceleration of the topic. Sorry, because I was working all day in the shop. Yes, don’t laugh, I hear the applause, Ha,Ha (he calls that) working, yes I was grinding on boots and fitting racers.

When I left this thread, I was asked about the demonstration of Grushman’s slalom turns “what am I not seeing” in reference to PMTS. So I’ll start there. I’m only responding to the short series of turns put up. He may be capable of far better turns and different turns: however I can only do MA on what I see and what I see is not PMTS.

Here a short list:

Hips in the backseat, there is no forward movement to pressure the tip of the ski, his hips are back in the critical parts of the arcs.

These are side cut turns, not pressured ski bend turns, therefore not applicable to slalom.

NO finish to the arc, these are half turns.

Angles are too weak for slalom turns and the energy and quickness is too passive for short edge set type turns.

Again sorry, I’m not trying to pat myself on the back, but for observation purposes, my brushed carves in the videos I post, are more complete and have more rebound energy; and I’m showing an intermediate skier turn, not supposedly a racing slalom turn. If you want to compare, go to my carving on the steeps video (max 501 put up). Those are energetic slalom turns.

[BigE]

max,

I think it's from World 2005. I'll check the DVD tomorrow night.

Too much to do up here.... it is already Thanksgiving in the great white north!

[h.harb]

The first turn in this montage may not be the most appropriate for recreational or even WC skiing technique or movements analysis. The reasons are;

It comes from a flat section to a step transition
The next gate is a longish traverse, so there is a break in rhythm.
Treat this more like a delay gate rather then a connected set of turns.
The second turn is a better example, the inside arm to the gate is part of the GS racing movement rhythm it also contributes to CA the upper body.
The arms are used less for rowing more for slowing done momentum and lateral rotation of the body.
Rarely is there a recreational skiing application, except in a high speed GS turn skiing on a steep slope.

[h.harb]

- So if you're with me so far and you agree that you have to have a redirection, and because it's steered and you have to be on a more or less flat ski with reduced weight...what does this mean in terms of the mantra of "early edge/early pressure"? I think the key is to think of trying to edge and pressure as early as you can without making it an unnatural act.

Here is another misconceived idea about steering and pressure. Another L3 trying to explain racing with TTS understanding. Steering and redirecting isn't necessary to think about because we already carry with us more than we can control. If he thinks he needs to steer it tells me he has not released the last turn correctly. This is what gets coaches into trouble; they try to explain skiing according to their understanding and results, but they ski incorrectly and they don't have the skills to do it correctly, so they explain based on their turns. Since they ski incorrectly, their explanation of how they ski or have to ski, their usage of movement is based on it. This is not what skiers who want to get it right need to learn.

Any L3 instructor who I have coached had to relearn their skiing to become a competent racer. DIana is the most obvious example and probably the most successful example of a L3 instructor becoming a top Masters racer and a competent FIS racer.

Anyway, someone who is still trying to get pressure early, is still on the wrong track. Pressure comes to you, it shouldn't be applied early.

[h.harb]

Earlier in this thread there was a long discussion about pivot slips. Who wrote "high level race coaches all over the world use pivoting drills" I'd like to know where this statement comes from and where are facts to back this up?

[h.harb]

Please find below another example of the breast stroke from the 2009 GS Discipline world cup holder , Didier Cuche:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVFTiTBFi6Q

Tarnby, I don't see why you insist on posting and bringing topics up that are fringe and rarely relevant to PMTS or good skiing. You are picking on freaky little used themes that will not gain anything for anyone on the forum or in other contexts of skiing? Can you explain yourself? Pivot slips come on?

The video post of Cuche you put up was during the period where he couldn't buy a turn or WC result. This was pre 2006 when he was still on Atomic skis. He only started skiing well after he switched to Head in 06.

[h.harb]

3 questions: (1) is the above-noted analysis correct; (2) does PMTS require CB and CA in every situation; and (3) how would you or HH rate the skiing below?

Thanking you in advance, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcoxQ2YtHko&NR=1
tarnaby

1) If you watched the Essentials DVD series, you would know that there is tremendous CA and CB happening that you don't see.
2) PMTS only requires what you need to ski well, try without it and then determine if you want some. I suggest if you can't hold on ice, control speed on steeps or make short turns on intermediate runs or bumps you need more CA and Cb.
3) The skiing is Grandi in the two year period where he had his poorest results, partly due to his equipment and partly his wide stance. He narrowed it up in the next two years and had his best results in slalom and GS.
Please when you put up video, or select video from You Tube use what is current and identifies what is being done right. His skiing in this clip is not representative of his good skiing.

[Ken]

As far as this is concerned... If you can't see the difference between it and what Harald teaches I think you need to review the essentials again.

I've never seen a description of that breast stroke in the essentials.

To keep the arms clear of gates???

[h.harb]

I think Greg is suggesting that there is a correct way to use the arms to avoid the gates and what we see here is not one of them.

[HeluvaSkier]

I think Greg is suggesting that there is a correct way to use the arms to avoid the gates and what we see here is not one of them.

Yeah... I was kind-of going in the direction that simply flapping your arms as you pass the gate doesn't do a whole-lot but there are arm movements like we mentioned with the inside arm that aid in CA, CB, and maintaining an extremely forward position keeping the feet back you as you exit the turn and head toward the transition. Of course this is all assuming racing through a course... how much is applicable to free skiing GS turns may vary...

[laglider]

As a PSIA L3 instructor and personal friend of GG I do not feel exactly welcome on this forum ). Which won't stop me from making few points about the discussion in general .

As it was admitted here, GG did not come up with his own skiing system, nor created his own moves or technique.
He is analysing WC skiing, breaking it apart, interpreting it and teaching people (99% of them professional athletes) how to ski WC way. I worked as one of his photographers on WC (http://levakhsanov.net/p1053078832) and his clinics (http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/greg_photo_gallery.htm) and I am familiar enough with the process.
It's perfectly natural that other coaches (and all other members of the skiing community) could have different interpretation of the same moves and different ways to teach how to perform them. As well as everybody on all levels (starting from 'wedge' level) love to do movement analysis, including coach's demos.
Personally I think it's good for the sport and keeps level of excitement even higher.

What, I think, is not good for the sport is when one well respected coach place another coach with extended coaching experience and big number of followers on the list of 'skiing charlatans'. MAJOR DISAPPOINTMENT ;(((.