Don't show this to Epic

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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby MonsterMan » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:19 pm

That guy sounds like Rich;

but Rich skis beautifully and doesn't whoop and holla and use words like "awesome".

Why would you want to risk injury at that age by skiing with a wide stance like that? Just crazy.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby milesb » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:46 pm

François wrote:
Now, to the point. Any video of their instructors who aren't senior citezens so we can compare apples to apples?



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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:00 pm

I've seen this before, they were so embarrassed they removed the better quality version from Epic. And why is it that when they ski, they all look like they have a broom stick, stuck up their "use your imagination?"
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby François » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:27 am

Ah yes, I remember seeing it too, but didn't realize these were the instructors that were providing the instruction.

It does seem from looking at the video that tipping the skis and making good use of their edges is a common missing element from most of the skiing shown in the video. This fact is a little confusing to me, because, from what I've read, edging is a primary element given as much importance as anything else, and ski shape and function is pretty basic, yet when tasting the pudding, edging seems to have been stolen from their tool box.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:19 am

from looking at the video that tipping the skis and making good use of their edges is a common missing element from most of the skiing shown in the video

And they are proud of it.

The "Skills Concept" which is the backbone of the American Teaching System or was, includes, steering, edging and pressure control.

Edging and pressure control have always been the poor step children of this system. In fact, I know of no descriptions in PSIA literature that adequately describes how to come by edging or pressure control. It's like the two orphan skills are supposed to happen if you accomplish steering well enough.

I know that the way they describe edging is by telling skiers, "steer your skis to an edge". Now if anyone can tell me how this is supposed to work, Bob's my Uncle.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby geoffda » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:33 am

h.harb wrote:I know that the way they describe edging is by telling skiers, "steer your skis to an edge". Now if anyone can tell me how this is supposed to work, Bob's my Uncle.


As far as I can tell, the belief is that the fall line is the appropriate place to engage your edges, so to get your skis to the fall line, you must steer. BTW, it's not Kool-Aid that PMTS students drink, it's Hi-C.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby Baja1 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:22 am

geoffda wrote: BTW, it's not Kool-Aid that PMTS students drink, it's Hi-C.


Nice. :D
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:34 am

Geoffda, this on paper, is logical, however, we don't ski on paper. There is a delay factor in skiing when it comes to engagement. This is never addressed and not realized in the TTS approach. Controlling and changing the effects caused by steering; turning them immediately to engagement at the falline, is impossible.

Steering into Engagement, is just not a reality. Unless you want to wait until the skis are totally across the falline and call that engaging.

I have written about this from many different view points. I could go into a long explanation showing the physics and gravitational effects at the falline etc etc. but I think we have all sensed the reality trying to hold and engage, even when not adding steering, it doesn't get easier as you ski faster, shorter turns and steeps.

The reason is that the forces of the slope and leg mass changing angle from one side to the other are very influential, regardless of techniques. During the transition and engaging phase even using a High C approach, the body and the forces already create a steering effect, but with PMTS that can be controlled. With PMTS any steering effect is part of tipping and engaging, but minimal compared to steering or leg rotation approaches. Regardless of how well we can control the effects of steering, we try to minimize the effects before the falline can add to them.

If you are engaged before the falline you can control what gravity adds, to a steered ski. If you are steering into the falline and leave engagement until the falline the skis will continue skidding, and now gravity is helping the skidding last longer. We know holding an edge with steering is virtually impossible. In fact, an expert skier trying to engage high C "without steering", has some delayed engagement effect.

The mechanics are also easy to describe, but to describe the mechanics of skiing you have to know how to do accurate MA. That's where the problem begins. The TTS don't do accurate MA; they do MA that supports what they want to show. And when they do MA, they do it on slopes and snow where they can sort of get away with what they are doing. At least to their satisfaction of skiing. I, on the other hand, would and do blow that MA out of the water. When I was in PSIA, they hated me because I didn't play the game; I called a skid a skid and I called a wedge a wedge. At examiner meetings on snow I pointed out that many examiners demonstrated a wedge entry to turns. I showed them in slow motion video. They could not see it on the hill until I described the movements. If you look at the Manuals of that era, you will see the demo team with a wedge entry in the photos. This says they are not skiing parallel or can't show it with or while demonstrating TTS techniques like steering.

Why can't they see that steering to an edge doesn't produce results and is hurting their skiing? The evidence is in front of their noses, in their own video. Sure you can get away with it on flat easy slopes, less gravity. But let them show us good skiing on steeps or bumps. Look at Weems skiing bumps, it is a travesty. And he is exaggerating extension, which puts him in an even more compromised situation. John Clendenin can at least demonstrate an extension with controlled lengthening and not get thrown violently into the back seat. BTW this is not Weems bashing, it's just factual evaluation. And it has nothing to do with age, it's bad technique. Clendenin is as old as Weems and he doesn't lose his balance on every turn in the bumps.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby geoffda » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:16 pm

h.harb wrote:Why can't they see that steering to an edge doesn't produce results and is hurting their skiing? The evidence is in front of their noses, in their own video. Sure you can get away with it on flat easy slopes, less gravity. But let them show us good skiing on steeps or bumps. Look at Weems skiing bumps, it is a travesty. And he is exaggerating extension, which puts him in an even more compromised situation. John Clendenin can at least demonstrate an extension with controlled lengthening and not get thrown violently into the back seat. BTW this is not Weems bashing, it's just factual evaluation. And it has nothing to do with age, it's bad technique. Clendenin is as old as Weems and he doesn't lose his balance on every turn in the bumps.


Yeah, that's the great thing about video; you can't hide from it. I've got to agree with what you are saying. I know my skiing isn't there yet because I can watch any ski movie and see that those skiers are doing things that I can't do yet. I may not be a world-class athelete, but I fully believe that I can at least master the same movements. When I watch video of myself, that is the standard. Usually, I'm disappointed (though less so lately), but the point being is that is what keeps me working to improve my skiing. I'm not there yet and I know it. So yeah, I've got to wonder whether some of these instructors at least realize the same thing. As a student, it is definitely disappointing to watch a professional ski instructor ski and wind up thinking "Really? Is that all you've got?" Maybe not everybody can be an inspirational skier on all terrain, but *somebody* should be able to carry the lantern. Who is the PSIA version of Hisaya Sato? Maybe its supposed to be the Demo team, but if so, where are they hiding? OTOH, watching the video of the Eastern Demo Teamers trying out for the national team was just painful. I just couldn't believe how universally bad the skiing was. Again, I was left going, "is that really the best you've got?" And I was also thinking, "how could you not be embarassed to publish this?" And "don't you want to ski better than that? How can you be satisfied with that level of skiing?" And more importantly, "how can you think consumers of ski instruction would want to ski like that?" So I share your sense of outrage. I want to learn how to ski like Nobis or Backstrom or Sato, or any other truly great skier. I told that to a PSIA instructor in a private lesson once and his reply was "wouldn't we all?" And I'd asked for an examiner!

PMTS really gets the certification thing right by ensuring the student always has inspiration on terrain they are being taught on. That's one thing I'm really looking forward to with the Super Blue Camp--having the opportuntity to see PMTS black skiers in action, on difficult terrain, showing us what is possible on skis.

Anyway, keep putting up those videos showing PMTS skiing. When people want to know why you should get their money, just point them there and ask "does your favorite instructor ski like that?"
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby HeluvaSkier » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:48 pm

geoffda wrote:As a student, it is definitely disappointing to watch a professional ski instructor ski and wind up thinking "Really? Is that all you've got?" Maybe not everybody can be an inspirational skier on all terrain, but *somebody* should be able to carry the lantern. Who is the PSIA version of Hisaya Sato? Maybe its supposed to be the Demo team, but if so, where are they hiding? OTOH, watching the video of the Eastern Demo Teamers trying out for the national team was just painful. I just couldn't believe how universally bad the skiing was. Again, I was left going, "is that really the best you've got?" And I was also thinking, "how could you not be embarassed to publish this?" And "don't you want to ski better than that? How can you be satisfied with that level of skiing?" And more importantly, "how can you think consumers of ski instruction would want to ski like that?"


This statement is exactly the kind of thinking that led me here. When I was given examples of some of the best of the best in US (and instances outside of the US as well) ski instruction I was left thinking - that's it? I didn't want to ski like their best. I wanted to ski better.

Most consumers don't know the difference. When they are told "these guys are the pinnacle of skiing" they believe it because there is nothing to compare it to. Also they have no reason to question a professional's authority - especially if they are well below the level of the professional who is telling them this.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby François » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:02 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:
geoffda wrote:As a student, it is definitely disappointing to watch a professional ski instructor ski and wind up thinking "Really? Is that all you've got?" Maybe not everybody can be an inspirational skier on all terrain, but *somebody* should be able to carry the lantern. Who is the PSIA version of Hisaya Sato? Maybe its supposed to be the Demo team, but if so, where are they hiding? OTOH, watching the video of the Eastern Demo Teamers trying out for the national team was just painful. I just couldn't believe how universally bad the skiing was. Again, I was left going, "is that really the best you've got?" And I was also thinking, "how could you not be embarassed to publish this?" And "don't you want to ski better than that? How can you be satisfied with that level of skiing?" And more importantly, "how can you think consumers of ski instruction would want to ski like that?"


This statement is exactly the kind of thinking that led me here. When I was given examples of some of the best of the best in US (and instances outside of the US as well) ski instruction I was left thinking - that's it? I didn't want to ski like their best. I wanted to ski better.

Most consumers don't know the difference. When they are told "these guys are the pinnacle of skiing" they believe it because there is nothing to compare it to. Also they have no reason to question a professional's authority - especially if they are well below the level of the professional who is telling them this.

Years ago when I was working my way through "intermediate" (I guess I'm still intermediate according to the descriptions on Peter's Realskiers ski review site) I considered lessons, but I had something to compare the instructor's skiing to. I wanted to ski like the DH racers on TV. Now we still have TV and we also have youtube. A big thankyou to Harald and other good skiers who post on youtube!
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:56 pm

Thank you, it's about education and you are becoming educated. You will learn and progress because you are not satisfied with what you are seeing in TTS. You see the results instructors end up with after years of training and dedication to a flawed system. Through this forum, we have developed an eye for skiing and you are no longer satisfied with the low, standard expectations, and that's good. In our ski camps, with recreational skiers, who ski 10 times a season, we see better skiers developing than what TTS instructors evolve to after decades of training. This is reveling.

And now we can back it up with video for everyone to watch. Thank you technology, now we have, "You Tube, DVDs and access to video, on line for everyone.

In my past life, I had friends and relatives that knew and worked with Edward R. Morrow and John Houseman. They were professors of education. It is not readily known that E. Morrow was a strong supporter of educational television. This was the generation before mine, the intelligencia, the anti McCarthy faction. They were thrilled with, (I was able to have direct conversations with them about this) the possibilities they saw with Television; as the vehicle to provide a world class university education to all Americans almost free. They were highly motivated by this opportunity. As we know this didn't happen. They tried with the founding of Educational Television, ETN, and they were able to offer university courses for some time. But as we know today, it didn't evolve into offering university education to the masses. This is what they believed was possible with the technology of the time. It didn't happen for many reasons. I am posting this because I see with the internet, another opportunity, (at least for skiing) to educate and provide a vehicle for ski education that the men in earlier times saw possible with television.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby orangeman » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:18 pm

I started skiing at age 50, and took many lessons at various resorts for three years without much progress. I decided that I was going to really learn to ski or I was going to quit. That's when I found PMTS on the internet. I knew immediately, from the articles, posts, and videos, that it was the real deal-exactly what I was searching for. It has changed my life. I have now been to several camps, and as awful as I was at the start, I could be the 'Poster Child' for PMTS. I'm here to tell you,that this stuff works. With focus and practice, my skiing has improved steadily and predictably. Skiing is more fun now than ever.
The old adage:"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" could, these days, read:"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear on the internet". Thank you Harald, and all, for being there!
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:15 pm

Thank you, I like you bottom scrip comment "feet first."

This also works, "Tipping first, and second? Tipping.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby HeluvaSkier » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:17 pm

orangeman,
Where do you ski?
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