Don't show this to Epic

PMTS Forum

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby HeluvaSkier » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:33 am

BigE wrote:Why?

I can hazard a guess -- they feel that restricting one's movements to a small set of essential movements is like putting on a straight jacket.

It's far easier to say that the "new tricks" (PMTS movements) are just a subset of the movments they already "know", than it is to admit that the old dog won't ski using only these "new tricks".

I'd think simplifying skiing would be a better approach than filling up a "toolbox" with a bunch of junk.


The funny part is that those are the same people that would be better off at practicing to master 5 or so movements than working on being less than mediocre at a "toolbox" full of supposed skills. Instead of skiers who are very proficient at a few movements that allow for high level skiing you end up with students who are not proficient in a lot of movements that don't allow for high level skiing...

The coaches are ever-drilling the "straight-jacket" idea by posturing their "toolbox" approach as a somehow more enlightened path to becoming an expert skier while putting down any methodology that teaches good versus bad skiing - claiming that such methodology is limiting and closed-minded. The students lap up it like warm milk because "they don't want their skiing to be limited"... Sadly, most never seem to progress...

I've even had those same coaches tell me that I'm limiting my skiing by subscribing here. After the progress I've made it feels more limitless than limiting... Great skiing isn't about teaching everything - it is about teaching the right things.
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

www.youtube.com/c/heluvaskier
User avatar
HeluvaSkier
 
Posts: 1526
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:29 pm
Location: Western New York

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby arothafel » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:25 am

KISS (for me) =
* Tipping
* CA / CB
* Fore/Aft

..... and for me those f___king hands!

Those are enough tools for a lifetime!
User avatar
arothafel
 
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:04 pm
Location: Villa Park, California

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby tarnaby » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:32 am

wrt the 3 skiers in the youtube bumps video - is that what level 3 PSIA skiers look like? Just curious.

If they are just folks out to have some fun and enjoy a beautiful day, then good for them; however, if they are holding themselves out as authorities on expert skiing (let alone criticizing PMTS) then that is an all together different situation.

Those are not quite the frozen solid volkswagon size bumps HH would have grown up skiing on in Quebec!
tarnaby
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby geoffda » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:39 am

The thing is, unless you are racing against the clock, great skiing is largely subjective. There is no question that those of us on this forum have a vision of great skiing that clearly aligns with PMTS. There is also no question that strong arguments can be made in favor of learning to ski "the PMTS way" and quite a few of us have been swayed by those arguments. But that is as far as it goes. To criticize others simply because they don't buy into PMTS is just arrogant. Not everyone wants to ski this way. Not everyone wants to learn to ski this way and whether we agree with them, their reasons are their own. This isn't selling time-shares. People should be able to say "no thanks" without ridicule.

I don't have a problem with pointing out some of the *differences* between what Weems, et al. are doing in the bumps versus what PMTS would advocate in the bumps. However, Weems, et. al. didn't ask the members of this forum for an opinion on their skiing, so I don't think it is right to be making value judgments. Plus it isn't necessary. Put PMTS skiing side by side with PSIA skiing and let the market decide. I know how I want to ski.

In any event, I know that if the situation were reversed, I wouldn't appreciate being publicly torn down, so it makes me uncomfortable to be a member of a forum where this regularly happens to others (and I don't like it when it happens on Epic either). This is especially true when my experiences with some of these folks have been nothing but positive. These are nice people, they are good, well-intentioned people, and if we disagree with them, they are still worthy of respect. None of these folks have ever bashed me personally for being interested in PMTS and I've even had a few rational and enjoyable conversations involving PMTS with them. Again, there is nothing wrong with objective analysis of what the PSIA or others are teaching and doing. Its the subjective stuff that is so negative that it can only be viewed as a personal attack that I hate.

Yeah, I know. It's been said before and I don't expect it to change, but at least I've said it and now there is one more voice saying the same thing: the pettiness that sometimes manifests itself on this forum is a black eye on PMTS and is a significant obstacle that turns people away.
User avatar
geoffda
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 am
Location: Copper Mountain, CO

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby tarnaby » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:51 am

Sure, but w/o looking to criticize anyone, are those 3 skiers top level PSIA instructors?
tarnaby
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby Max_501 » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:56 am

tarnaby wrote:Sure, but w/o looking to criticize anyone, are those 3 skiers top level PSIA instructors?


It is a PSIA instructor and two students.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4124
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby tarnaby » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:00 am

Thanks for clearing that up Max_501.
tarnaby
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby geoffda » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:58 am

Max_501 wrote:
tarnaby wrote:Sure, but w/o looking to criticize anyone, are those 3 skiers top level PSIA instructors?


It is a PSIA instructor and two students.


Weems (the older skier) is a PSIA Level 3, examiner, former D-Team member, former SSD of Aspen Ski School. But he is also in his 70's and skiing on an artificial knee. One important unanswered question is what Weems thinks about his own bump skiing. If you've read his Sports Diamond concept, he doesn't evaluate skiing based purely on technique per se. So even if that footage was meant to demonstrate something, it might not be what you think. Incidentally, Weems may take a more relaxed approach in the bumps, but good luck keeping up with him on the groomed.

Chris is the other male skier and the footage doesn't do his skiing justice. He's a good bump skier (as well as a good all around skier). I mention this because knowing his ability (and the fact that he knows Weems), I would be surprised if this is an actual lesson.
User avatar
geoffda
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 am
Location: Copper Mountain, CO

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby ginaliam » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:40 am

Ah, Bumps-more than steeps, and powder they highlight the differences between the advanced intermediate and the true expert. And unlike steeps and powder, they're everywhere (as in on any typical day they can be encountered at any ski area). For those seeking higher level instruction its the an area most folks want increased competency in. So, seeing one of Aspen's top-dogs (and Epic's top dog) skiing some in a lesson demonstration is worthwhile.

I think the general sense here is correct, that is, Weems-especially in the second video with the two other skiers, skis the bumps fairly well and reasonable level of competency-no, he doesn't ski them as well as top top level skier in his athletic prime (and if Weems really is in his 70's-he does deserve a extra kudo for his skiing) -the lady he was instructing did pretty OK, too-I have no Idea what her level was before skiing with Weems, but judging from her elation, it must have been considerably lower than what was evidenced in this video) and Clearly they were all enjoying skiing.

Are there better ways to ski bumps and learn to ski bumps?? Undoubtedly! PMTS and Clendinen's approaches come immediately to mind and are used to great effect by many here on this forum of course. But, I'd also be a little wary of too much mudslinging over approaches to Bump skiing and what constitutes good bump skiing: Afterall, there are a lot of rippers (competitors and just fireballing young guns) who absolutely mock the carvy style of bump skiing taught here and elsewhere as the domain of old gapers who can't handle what they call 'real bump skiing'. Now, Being one of those old gapers myself, I'm ok with that :D , and hope one day to gain real mogul competency in the carve-style approach, but I do marvel from time to time at what some of my younger (and a few contemporaries) ski friends bust out when raging through the zipperlines of impossible mogul fields.
ginaliam
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:53 pm

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:57 am

Age has nothing to do with it and the lead skier is a Long time Aspen instructor. I have a terrible knee and I'm old. But I will never ski like that. It is the way they are skiing that is under scrutiny. I just can't seem to get that across.

It's their technique which is screwing them up. I know they have some athletic ability, this skiing doesn't show it. But if everyone is so satisfied with this skiing and level of skiing, then have at it.
Don't give up so easily, expert skiing isn't that difficult and settling for a lower level will never be satisfying.

I'm checked out on this topic.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 7047
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:08 pm

Enough of all this namby pamby political correctness .

Harald is giving a good old , Zen like , slap in the face .

if it wakes you up to your own inadequacies well and good if it doesn't just continue on in your little world of self indulgence .
skinut ,among other things
User avatar
jclayton
 
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:37 pm
Location: mallorca ,spain

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:15 pm

I know of 70 , 80 Yr old martial artists who are perfect stylists . I know of an Aikido master , Sugano , who had a leg amputated and has a prosthesis , just try and knock him over whatever your size . Harald has a wrecked knee , how about his skiing .

At least Harald writes nuts and bolts , no airy fairy head in the clouds stuff . ( A good duo , Fastman and Fantasyman )

Regardless of who the skiers are we can learn by pulling apart their technique . No one is saying theye don't have a right to live . ( Though there is a lot of valuable wasted oxygen )
skinut ,among other things
User avatar
jclayton
 
Posts: 1019
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:37 pm
Location: mallorca ,spain

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby semnoz » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:49 pm

h.harb wrote:A wide stance is another PSIA and Epic catastrophe.

A wide stance especially a this level of skiing kills you, because it promotes a low hip position, which is very difficult to move from to the next turn. Also, it spreads your balance, which makes it very slow moving from ski to ski. The excuses that BB uses to justify a wide stance are hilarious.


h.harb wrote:They see a wide stance when the skier is in the meat of the arc. Look at the long time PMTS explanations of skiing biomechanics, we describe this part of the arc as "Vertical Separation", not a wide stance. Coaches still don't understand the difference, neither do most Epic coaches.


You've answered your own question and it took me a while to realize the same thing: PSIA confuses "wide stance" with "vertical separation".

h.harb wrote:Is it because; a wide stance, steering and extension are the way it's written in their teaching manuals, so publicly they have to support bad ideas and methods?


Unfortunately I think that the answer is yes, and it's nothing unique to large organizations - lots of inertia makes it difficult to change the "ship's" direction. This kind of fundamental, core change won't happen unless PSIA's survival is threatened or a strong leader within the organization is able to bring on change.

h.harb wrote:How can you do this when the way you ski, isn't how you describe skiing? Barnes isn't even skiing close to how he describes it to others. Is this a scam or does he just not know?


Yeah, this always annoyed me as I went through the exam process. I honestly don't think it's a scam but more likely something along the lines of denial and not wanting to admit the disconnect.

h.harb wrote:
... so it has to be the Harb factor.


I bet there's some truth to that. I had never heard of EPIC until I first came across this forum, but when I took a peek over there it became clear pretty quick that a few key Rocky Mountain & National people on EPIC (who apparently are key people in the development of PSIA teaching techniques and education standards?) just don't like you. Given that, it's really no surprise that they remain close minded to pretty much anything you have to say.
semnoz
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:25 am

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby tarnaby » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:00 pm

I have skied since I was a youngster (both my parents were big time skiers) and received tons of instruction/coaching as a kid while in racing programs and later in instructing programs and yet when I read ESSENTIALS, I realized that my understanding of skiing was really lacking. I spent all of last season trying to get rid of a-framing and tip lead and worked with 2 different instructors, 2 different DVDs, the Ron LeMaster book (which might very well be a great book but I could not comprehend it in anyway whatsoever), etc.....but I still had the a-frame and tip lead at the end of the season. I started reading ESSENTIALS after the season and built the tipping plate and carpet ramp. I also started working on the Phantom Move on my roller blades. After about 10 minutes (it wouldn't surprise me if some folks pick it up in 30 seconds) I was able to make the move (and you know when you've done it properly b/c you're making both the most efficient turn of your life - it's a feeling I doubt many instructors have experienced). I could not believe that all this time there had been a 10 minute solution to my a-frame and tip lead problem. So you'll excuse me if I don't look to traditional ski instruction for insights into how to improve at the sport when reading a single $25 book (Essentials) provided exponentially more benefit than all of the combined previous instruction/literature and DVDs that I had previously invested my precious time in. Once you have a grasp of the PMTS movements, detection and correction becomes a snap and you get better and better. The traditional instruction format is just a recipe to get to a certain level and then go sideways forever with no real improvement (this has got to be one of the reasons skiers stop taking lessons as soon as they have achieved any sort of competency).

When I run into skiers (especially instructors) who want to improve, I tell them to grab Essentials + Anyone can be..... and tell them to read them over and over again.
tarnaby
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby François » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:58 pm

When I first saw this thread I though, "Same old, same old Epic bashing." But when I saw the video and learned that this was supposed to be the instructor, I was shocked.

Ok, I find out it's a 70 year old instructor and two students, so I'll cut him some slack.

However this is not what I expect to see from a lifetime of learning to ski.

I'm certainly no great bump skier, but I'm not out there selling bump-skiing lessons to anyone. That Harold chap, seems to ski bumps pretty well, and I would take lessons from him if I could afford them, but the other guy? No thanks.

Now, to the point. Any video of their instructors who aren't senior citezens so we can compare apples to apples?
François
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:08 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Primary Movements Teaching System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 20 guests