Don't show this to Epic

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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:47 am

You incline your body into the turn--it will feel like falling--which will both tip your skis and move you inside the path of your skis, where you will be in balance later, when your skis engage and carve back beneath you.


This is the problem for most skiers, not the solution.
When skiing you should not need to create a feeling that you are falling. It may happen that you sense you are losing balance, but don't purposely push yourself out of balance. Done right even upside down, high C positions don't or shouldn't feel like you are falling. The idea that you need to put yourself in a situation where you feel like you are falling to move inside the turn, is just part of the convoluted traditional approach. It is a necessary ramification to get around a missing connecting blocks for a faulty methodology.

This is just an excuse for poor teaching. These instructors will even go as far as telling you to push your "center of mass" downhill. These approaches are needed and mandatory in their system, because their system is flawed. Their systems omits numerous key ingredients that are building blocks for good skiing. In fact, they never address tipping or flexing. If they do they usually teach it giving the wrong timing in the arc for the skier. This has long term negative consequences that are very difficult to unlearn. Which is worst than not teaching it at all. Why go down that road filled with traps and missteps?
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:19 pm

Here is something confusing that may need to be explained possibly BigE can do that for us. A post from a skier who comments on: "understanding or using movement approaches". I don't know who this is, it's in response to BigE, who suggested a movement approach, like pulling the feet back.

Probably. And you can see how flawed that is...you can pull the feet back till cows come home...that wont bring the shoulders forward.


Why do you want to get the shoulders forward? Is that how this skier looks at fore/aft management? Getting shoulders forward isn't the issue with lack of Fore/aft, that's a stance issue.

Am I missing something in the line of the thread? Because we know that with PMTS Releasing, "pulling the feet back", you can re-center on any slope. In addition, re-centering by pulling the feet back should not change and it isn't meant to change; the forward lean of the shoulders.

Pulling the feet back a movement cure for bad steeps and bump skiing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJoUP-ZoZjw

Maybe the guy needs to see some non PSIA skiing to clear his mind.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:22 pm

You want to see some really bad bump or steep skiing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJknJRe6Ylo

Help me with this, are these examples of the quality of skiing, their instructors want students to be able to achieve?

This is called, Hot Bump Skiing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRXWp-2HAPw

Are they having Global warming of a different nature over there in Aspen? They are smoking something. I love You Tube you can't hide, it shows everything.
And these guys are the ones taking a crack at Max501's skiing. You have got to be s------g me.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:44 pm

What I don't understand is how can you assume you can teach someone to ski bumps when you can't ski them yourself. You may be able to try something that you are doing, but what you are doing isn't working, so how can you want others to ski that way. Am I out to lunch here or is level of skiing and instructor demonstration satisfactory to people?

Harald Harb Quote:
The technique they teach is exemplified by the way they ski, there is no doubt in my mind about that!!!
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby geoffda » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:36 pm

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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby ToddW » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:37 pm

h.harb wrote: Am I out to lunch here or is level of skiing and instructor demonstration satisfactory to people?


These videos are just another example of why so few people take repeat ski lessons. (There was an interminable thread over there about that earlier this year and most of the instructors couldn't stomach suggestions that their teaching, their golf-cart skiing, and their PSIA norms were to blame for this problem. It's hard to accept negative feedback, especially if your self-respect is partially derived from meeting the standards of a group that is itself the problem.)

The "ancient bump skier" is the director of Epic Ski Academy. Now that consumers have YouTube video from him as well as Harald and Diana, they're in a better position than ever before to make an informed purchasing decision. :mrgreen:

edit: Geoffda was posting at the same time as me. The videos I refer to as examples of why people don't take lessons are obviously not the video of Harald that Geoffda posted. That video is positive incentive to take more lessons :)
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:02 pm

I guess the best word for all that ( if you follow up the You Tube videos there are others of Weems etc expounding ) is phony .

There is a lot of that phony stuff going on over in Aspen .
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:29 pm

Thank you I'm feeling better. Because if that stuff is the standard and that's all people expect from instruction then I'm in the wrong business.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jbotti » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:41 pm

One word separates good off piste skiers from mediocrity (and it goes double in the bumps): ROTATION!!! It is fun to watch these vidoes because it aligns my thoughts on what I want to do differently from what I am seeing. It also makes it clear what needs to be in place to ski bumps like an expert. Upper and lower body seperation, and fore aft balance that is not aft!!

I still haven't mentioned the fact that these are soft bumps with fresh snow on them!!
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby Max_501 » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:39 pm

I have a different view of the videos linked above.

Weems and his students link turns in a field of decent sized bumps. They don't stop from top to bottom and they are exhibiting good speed control. There is a bobble here and there but its relatively smooth skiing. The line isn't aggressive but its a good choice for speed control and they are clearly having fun with it. While it may not be the style of skiing I aspire to, I do know people that would be happy if they could get down a bump run like that.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:24 pm

Max501, you are totally missing the point, and taking this out of context. These people are holding their own skiing back with their own with bad information. What you are not seeing, and don't realize is how much more proficient they could be with good information and instruction. They are good enough to get down, sure, if that's the goal. What you may not acknowledge is that they spent a lifetime training, and refining skills so they could get down with that demonstration.

Sure recreational skiers with limited experience would be satisfied with this. But we aren't talking about recreational skiers here, these are examiners and trainers. It took them forty years to ski that badly at this poor skill level. Give me a fraction of the time with PMTS skiers, and we will make recreational skiers that can clearly stand out ski this level. I am surprised you would post such comments, as one who has benefited from the PMTS program, yet you can't see the difference. They might even re-enstate you on Epic after that post.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:27 pm

They don't stop from top to bottom and they are exhibiting good speed control.
You missed, without a traverse, which they didn't accomplish.

That won't pass the Blue level of PMTS accreditation.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby Max_501 » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:26 pm

h.harb wrote:But we aren't talking about recreational skiers here, these are examiners and trainers. It took them forty years to ski that badly at this poor skill level.


My understanding is the linked video is one coach and two students.

h.harb wrote:I am surprised you would post such comments, as one who has benefited from the PMTS program, yet you can't see the difference


I wasn't evaluating the skiing from a PMTS technique point of view. Instead I was thinking of the question you posed earlier -

h.harb wrote:Am I out to lunch here or is level of skiing and instructor demonstration satisfactory to people?


When I watch and listen to the people in the video I conclude that yes, these people are having fun and are happy. It sure looks and sounds like they are satisfied.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:01 am

I have to say I understand Max501's point .I have many freinds and family who enjoy themselves regardless . But these people in the video criticize PMTS .

Also one of the main reasons we go to Harald is that there is no compromise . I remember being on a lift with him and he can't abide seeing ANYONE skiing badly . We all know what it's like to feel things come together and start to feel like an expert then have Harald shoot us down in flames . A good , healthy ego destruction .

Much more satisfyng in the long term than complimentary/feelgood/psuedo hippy/self indulgent instruction .
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby BigE » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:26 am

I'm agreeing with Max here.

Are they enjoying themselves? Yes.

Would others like to ski this well? Yes.

Is it top level skiing? No.

Do these folks do criticize PMTS? Yes.

Why?

I can hazard a guess -- they feel that restricting one's movements to a small set of essential movements is like putting on a straight jacket.

It's far easier to say that the "new tricks" (PMTS movements) are just a subset of the movments they already "know", than it is to admit that the old dog won't ski using only these "new tricks".

I'd think simplifying skiing would be a better approach than filling up a "toolbox" with a bunch of junk.
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