Don't show this to Epic

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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:53 pm

One of the great things about internet is that you can pick a subject , whatever it is , and sift through many posts and links and eventually will find gold . This will have to happen ( looks like it is now ) with PMTS . It is all there , up front , no excuses . Delivers the goods !
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby geoffda » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:11 pm

jclayton wrote:How does this guy handle "Palli" on a bad day ? Any videos ?


http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/776 ... dius-turns

Scroll down post #1; there is a short clip of Bob skiing Headwaters Chutes at Moonlight Basin.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:43 pm

Can't seem to get in to Epic . Permission denied !
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby jclayton » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:10 pm

Found it !

Looks like he is transfering weight to the new stance ski to me . In the sequence the old stance ski is released and is higher than the uphill ski .

As for pivot slips having everything in common with carved turns ?????

He appears to bear out his quote about reality and theory !!

Skiing looks good but I would like to see him on an entire run without the "hero snow" .
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby MonsterMan » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:51 pm

Without huge speed, it's almost impossible to tip your skis to a high carving edge angle--on the downhill edges--at the top of a turn on the steeps.


Imagine how this fellows students will feel when they discover how untrue this statement is.

Crikey, one of our goals is to do stationary edge changes and even I am getting better at this.

We are so lucky to have been given the pmts shortcut to skiing enlightenment, thanks Harald.
"Someone once said to me that for us to beat the Europeans at winter sports was like Austria tackling us at Test cricket. I reckon it's an accurate judgement." Malcolm Milne
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:03 pm

Without huge speed, it's almost impossible to tip your skis to a high carving edge angle--on the downhill edges--at the top of a turn on the steeps.


I guess if you can't tip your feet, and counter balance without pivoting, you'll never be able to use a high C without "huge speed". I doubt he has ever seen a high C. I know he didn't know what it was until I wrote about it.

I can't see the video footage being discussed because I can't log onto Epic. Hey guys, how about putting up something we can all see.

Monsterman, BTW, his perception is his reality, that goes for most of those guys. Facts? who needs Facts? Aren't they like badges, if you are protected by numbers who needs facts or badges?
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:04 pm

I screwed up, those guys have plenty of badges in that organization, that must make them legit.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby MonsterMan » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:18 pm

I can't see the video footage being discussed because I can't log onto Epic.


I got in by going to a normal forum and searching for "Lifting The Inside Ski Can Impede Student Progress By Bob Barnes"

Maybe this link works;

http://www.epicski.com/wiki/lifting-the-inside-ski-can-impede-student-progress-by-bob-barnes
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:23 pm

The closer together your feet when you transfer balance from one to the other, the less your body has to move. So proponents of "the lift" invariably believe in very narrow stances. The narrow stance does not eliminate the problem, of course, it just reduces it. And it causes problems of its own--not the least of which is that it is a stance that bears little resemblance to that of World Cup racers.



This is where he hangs himself. If it works better with a narrow stance, based on efficiency. That tells us that the World Cup skiers will figure it out and use it. They do, he just doesn't see it. I used to think the problem with their understanding was, everything they saw was distorted because they looked through PSIA glasses. Now I think they just don't know what to look for in good skiing.
I know Bergie skis with a narrower stance than I do. They openly acknowledge he's their best skier. They don't try to denigrate him, so it has to be the Harb factor.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby A.L.E » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:46 pm

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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby trtaylor » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:29 pm

jclayton wrote:Interesting that BB does not mention tipping/edging once in his article .

Always PMTS says change edges under the body i.e. lift - AND TILT - while in a neutral stance.

100% correct, JC. One can lift the foot and stand like a stork all day long. But, lift and simultaneously invert the foot and see what happens.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby A.L.E » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:59 pm

trtaylor wrote:
jclayton wrote:Interesting that BB does not mention tipping/edging once in his article .

Always PMTS says change edges under the body i.e. lift - AND TILT - while in a neutral stance.

100% correct, JC. One can lift the foot and stand like a stork all day long. But, lift and simultaneously invert the foot and see what happens.


Spot on trtaylor, TILTING results in immediate weight shift toward the turn direction.

The PMTS instructor's manual does not start teaching never evers with the phantom move.
Drills build the required balance skills of students to enable progression to the lift and tilt.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:28 am

Thanks A.L.E. for putting up the video. Watching this footage confirms a consistent and universal attitude in PSIA's trainers and examiners. That is: it's OK from them to ski with a narrow stance, but philosophically they are against a narrow stance for skiers. They will argue and make up reasons until their death that a narrow stance is bad to teach and that the world cup skiers don't use it. I can't seem to figure out the logic here.

Is it because; a wide stance, steering and extension are the way it's written in their teaching manuals, so publicly they have to support bad ideas and methods? How can you do this when the way you ski, isn't how you describe skiing? Barnes isn't even skiing close to how he describes it to others. Is this a scam or does he just not know?

How can you go out and train instructors with poor methods and force them to demonstrate and practice poor movements. The end result is this bad instruction goes to the poor folks who take lessons.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby milesb » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:14 am

What Barnes is doing there is very difficult and risky. There is a big disconnect between what the skis and hips/upper body are doing at the top of the turn. The hope is that by the fall line it will all come into balance- it mostly does in that turn, though he does fall onto the inside ski, but that's not necessarily a mistake for many non-PMTS skiers. It doesn't have to be this way. Pull the feet back, stay flexed through the top of the turn (extending while there is little pressure usually messes things up) while tipping the free ski and counterbalancing as hard as you can, and making a nice round high C on steep slopes is actually pretty simple and secure. No need to "guide" the skis through the top of the turn, no need to let the feet go in front of the body. On a steep slope, even a slightly edged and pressured ski TIP will turn into the fall line very quickly and nicely. My avatar shows this to some extent -it's actually a pretty steep but short pitch- but see Harald's latest Pali vid for how to do it better.
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Re: Don't show this to Epic

Postby h.harb » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:41 am

There are so many disconnects to Barnes's descriptions of skiing. Most have origins in PSIA lingo like "guiding" for example. The reality is that in short turns on the steeps there is no time for guiding. You have to keep it simple and get to what works; don't clutter your mind with useless terminology. It's clear Barnes never skis aggressively on difficult terrain and has never raced. If you have any background with these forms of skiing you wouldn't be talking the gibberish he does.
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