Inside ski pull-back thread revival attempt

[piggyslayer]

Inside ski pull-back thread, among other things, contained an interesting discussion initiated by milesb about position of hips and shoulders at the end of the turn:

Facing downhill vs. square aligned with skis.

I hope to reopen some of this discussion and at the same time get an answer if my understanding is correct.

My experiments in the field make me believe that keeping upper body facing downhill at the end of the turn
has the effect of extending the turn with skis still on the edge. This keeps skier in the old turn for a moment longer even though the CM may have already crossed over to the new turn. I believe this is direct result of maintaining more countered position at the end.

In contrast, aligning the upper body square with skis tends to speed up the moment when the skis go flat against the snow as there is lack of upper body counter at that moment when I do that.

I think this is simply my rephrasing of what Harald wrote:

If my skis need more grip, I keep the hips and shoulders facing more downhill and I keep the inside hip into the hill, to support my edge angles. If I don?t need grip, I release my skis and my hips move more square.

The 1st approach (countered position at the end) seems to me a very cool way to ski. I think it can aid the development of top C carve as the new edges have to be established very fast to accommodate for CM position relative to skis as the transition to new edges happens late.

Even though I try to think about feet only when I ski, the 1st and the 2nd (square at the end) approach seem to me clearly 2 different variants of how the upper body reacts to movements introduced at the foot level.

Flexing legs at the end of the turn seems to me to be quite a different experience when I am countered and when I am square. In the 1st approach (countered end of turn) the flexing pulls the knees up to the side of my torso and I think about a bit of contraction of obliques in the abdominal area.
In the more square position, I think of relaxing my legs and hips and pressure applied to heels of my foot and this generates some flex (even though sometimes using abs and pulling knees up a bit sideways seems to help on ice).

Am I trying to make too much out of it, or there is something dramatically different between these 2 approaches?

[BigE]

Keeping the edge engaged while crossing the CM into the turn is contrary to this:

If you begin to tip the skis and align the upper body to the tipping, you?ll have a ?high C? attitude. If you stay over the skis, you won?t develop angles early enough to control speed. In this case, you will be looking for grip at the end of the turn when you should already be releasing. This is a downward spiral, literally.

because the upper body is NOT aligned to the tipping. This quote certainly says which side of the skis you should find the CM. If I read it right, the CM is to cross over during release, not prior to release....

And in fact, it's not the facing downhill that continues to hold the edge, it's the hips being into the hill.

[piggyslayer]

Are you saying that keeping upper body facing downhill at the end of the turn is bad all together or that it will not produce angulation or carving action in high C?

I do not see the contradiction.
I agree that upper body facing downhill resists tipping influence from the ?future? inside foot (if you relax hip and LTE ?future? inside foot the body will move from countered to square and then countered in the new direction position.)
The idea is to maintain edge for a while longer. I believe that if I do that, I do not start agressively tipping the new inside foot until about the time or just before the time the edges are released.

Since this is a delayed release approach it should work well with super phantom (TRE move sequence) but I do not think super phantom is required here.

For what it is worth: my experimentation on Carvers yields good early angle development.

Since Harald posted in the original thread, maybe we should move our discussion over there?

[BigE]

Are you saying that keeping upper body facing downhill at the end of the turn is bad all together or that it will not produce angulation or carving action in high C?

I do not see the contradiction.
I agree that upper body facing downhill resists tipping influence from the ?future? inside foot (if you relax hip and LTE ?future? inside foot the body will move from countered to square and then countered in the new direction position.)
The idea is to maintain edge for a while longer. I believe that if I do that, I do not start agressively tipping the new inside foot until about the time or just before the time the edges are released.

Since this is a delayed release approach it should work well with super phantom (TRE move sequence) but I do not think super phantom is required here.

For what it is worth: my experimentation on Carvers yields good early angle development.

Since Harald posted in the original thread, maybe we should move our discussion over there?

Let's keep it here. The other thread is likely to explode. It does each time Harald posts....

Darn forums, it's so hard to get across what one glance would show.....

What I read and what you wrote may be different things. I'm not against ending in a countered position.

What I read is that the countered position extends the turn, and that CM can be allowed to cross over before the edges are released.

There are two problems: 1) Harald actually writes that if one "tips the skis and aligns the upper bpdy to the tipping, you'll have a high "C" attitude." 2) It's not the position your upper body faces, but the hips being into the hill that actually hold the edge.

wrt (1): Crossing over the CM prior to edge release is against maintaining the alignment of upper body to the tipping. I am assuming that Harald means alignment to the tipping as upper body above the perpendicular of both skis -- CM aligned above the platform.

If you are still edging, and cross CM over, the CM can't be above the platform. This sounds backwards to the goal of skiing with the feet, and beginning movements at the base of the kinetic chain. It sounds like here, it's upper body first, projecting into the turn....

Is it possible that you may be trying to describe a move that crosses over the CM, using a small edge angle courtesy of inclination, and then increasing edge angle via hip angulation through the turn?

[piggyslayer]

Well, hmm, I think I cannot judge whether CM crosses or not, there is no way I can sense that happening. I can sense it moving forward and I can sense good early angulation when I do that. By NO MEANS am I advocating leaning forward with upper body at that or any other moment!

The CM moves simply due to its own downhill momentum carried from the previous turn(s) and this momentum is amplified by flexing legs (that lowers center of mass and thus, physics pushes you down). If I transfer my wait to the new stance leg (super phantom) this will propel CM even more (again simple physics).

Thus, I do not need to tip my feet for CM to move forward. In fact, I do believe the goal of skiing with your feet is to use your feet (or free foot) to manage position of your body (including upper body). The rest is gravity. I do not want to push anything with my foot, including the CM.

I view prolonging the turn and edge hold as a corollary of ending the turn facing downhill. Here is the mathematized logic:
If my upper body is facing downhill then I am countered.
If I am countered then my edges hold longer.

My understanding of Harald?s quote is bit different. You can LTE tip without relaxing your hip. This will result in hip staying directly above your feet. This way angles never develop and in addition the tipping movement will result in non-lateral (actually rotary) input to your stance foot. In fact, the first question that comes to my mind if a friend PMTS-ian has problem committing into turn is if LTE tipping is accompanied by relaxing the hip.
So when you tip you need to let the hip follow and that is, I believe, the point of Harald?s comment.
What I am proposing creates a natural angle early in the turn that may supplement increased angulation achieved from tipping.

Sorry for lengthy reply. Does that make sense?

[BigE]

Well, hmm, I think I cannot judge whether CM crosses or not, there is no way I can sense that happening. I can sense it moving forward and I can sense good early angulation when I do that. By NO MEANS am I advocating leaning forward with upper body at that or any other moment!

I did not think you were!

The CM moves simply due to its own downhill momentum carried from the previous turn(s) and this momentum is amplified by flexing legs (that lowers center of mass and thus, physics pushes you down). If I transfer my wait to the new stance leg (super phantom) this will propel CM even more (again simple physics).

OK.

Thus, I do not need to tip my feet for CM to move forward. In fact, I do believe the goal of skiing with your feet is to use your feet (or free foot) to manage position of your body (including upper body). The rest is gravity. I do not want to push anything with my foot, including the CM.

OK.

I view prolonging the turn and edge hold as a corollary of ending the turn facing downhill. Here is the mathematized logic:
If my upper body is facing downhill then I am countered.
If I am countered then my edges hold longer.

Ok, I won't argue terminology. Unmistakably, when you are countered, the hips are into the hill. The important thing is that edge holds longer.

My understanding of Harald?s quote is bit different. You can LTE tip without relaxing your hip. This will result in hip staying directly above your feet. This way angles never develop and in addition the tipping movement will result in non-lateral (actually rotary) input to your stance foot.

That's ok. IMO, Harald didn't mean exactly that. I read that : if you tip and align your fine. If you stay over the skis once your tipped you've got problems. IOW, if the CM is allowed to move inside after tipping you're ok. But that quote does not say anything about moving CM first.

What it seems you are suggesting is to allow the CM to cross over first, and then quickly tip to engage.

In fact, the first question that comes to my mind if a friend PMTS-ian has problem committing into turn is if LTE tipping is accompanied by relaxing the hip.
So when you tip you need to let the hip follow and that is, I believe, the point of Harald?s comment.

That's true for sure!

What I am proposing creates a natural angle early in the turn that may supplement increased angulation achieved from tipping.

Sorry for lengthy reply. Does that make sense?

I think we may now be on the same page. Here's what I think you are saying:

The intent is for an early "natural" angle to be achieved by moving the CM inside using the momentum from the previous turn and relaxation of the old stance leg.

Tipping of the free foot is used for additional angulation.

However, by delaying release, you delay the onset of the natural angle, so that when you do release (via tipping), and the body is aligned to the platform, two things happen:

1) the edge angles are much higher right away, (the effect of natural angle ) and
2) the transition stage is lightening fast -- very little time is spent in neutral.

Is that about right?

[piggyslayer]

BigE,
Thanks, this is good close explanation to what I try to do with some of my turns.
I wanted to add a small comment:

2) the transition stage is lightening fast -- very little time is spent in neutral.

The "neutral" happens earlier when the upper body is over my legs which traverse across the hill. But I like the way you put it there is not time in neutral after the delayed release for sure.

I am playing with a bit of LTE tipping at the "neutral" phase described above, but, I think, this is more preparation for what needs to happen after release. Strong tipping at this moment will put me square over the skis.

I think we may be making too much out of this. I just wanted to point out the maybe obvious or maybe not so obvious that keeping you upper body square at the end of the turn makes the edges hold longer and the egde change a bit delayed when compared with the square over skis position.

[BigE]

OK, we're on the same page now. It's good on steep fall lines.