Pivot Slips and other Interesting Drills

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Pivot Slips and other Interesting Drills

Postby John Mason » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:30 pm

OK - now that I have everyone's attention a couple of thoughts after my PSIA tech team for NW ran camp at Mt Hood.

Yes we did pivot slip drills. Yes we even did an drill that had a wedge. Stem entry to turns, etc.

Here is my observations:

1st - this is a very fun and well run camp. It's focus is racing. As people who follow my posts you know that I believe much of what HH has brought to the table is bring racing type skiing into a beginner to expert progression and thus there are far more similarities than differences.

2nd - one of my roommates had the gorrila turn proponent from out east on DVD - while not all bad, his ideal for skiing was not what the coaches at this camp were striving for. Interesting thought fodder however.

Ok - now for the drills that are not ever on PMTS's radar screen and what they were for:

1. Pivot Slips. We did these breifly on the first day. This was done mainly to help teach people to unlock the upper body from the lower body since in short radius turns you must do this to minimize upper body movement.

2. Stepping Wedge entry - wierdly enough, though a dangerous drill, it attemps to accomplish the same effect as the Super Phantom in that many people in the camp were pivoting and skidding the top of their turns. By taking an agreesive step with the old inside ski and placing it in a wedge at the very top of the turn you then, to avoid falling must lift the old down hill ski and bring it parallel. This extreme step causes people to ski the very top of the turn. It's an ugly drill. Not as effective as the Super Phantom. You must get off the old outside leg instantly or fall.

Other than these two drills the other things we worked on were right out of PMTS or PMTS is right out of best racing instruction.

We worked a lot on one ski balance.

We worked a lot on raising the tail of the inside ski and tipping it to initiate turns.

We heard constant shouts down the mountain by the head coach that went:

1. No pivot - just tipping
2. Don't point with your knees, just use your ankles
3. Pull that inside leg back (interesting this is the key thing taught just like PMTS to keep that weight forward as the turn develops)
4. No A frame (no stem entries)

In all discussions there was a similar focus on foot actions on the LTE. Even the sideslip drill we worked on the first day we were told to stop tip the top foot towards its LTE.

Back to the subject of gorilla turns. This type of skiing for carving was discussed quite a bit because one of the guys had the DVD and the comments were the same as a PMTS person would make. Stance too wide (on the DVD it's interesting to see the instructor show statically the drill with a extremely wide stance then watch this same instructor have 1/2 the width of that stance in the actual drill) - and don't lead with the inside leg, but keep the ankles more closely together (pull the free and keep pulling the free foot back). I just thought that was interesting since that "how to best attain fore to aft balance" was the same as HH says to do.

Anyway - lafayette ski club wed night where they will be discussing the first ski trips of the season whilst I just get back from one. (albeit I'm really looking forward to some non-race skiing again)

Oh, personally, for me, what I was focused on in the camp was fore to aft balance. The camp was very helpful for me on this and I have more awareness how to keep that in place as the turn progresses. I had been relying on the pole plant reaching down the hill but in GS you don't pole plant so I had to learn better ways (pull that inside foot back and keep doing it).
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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:38 am

2. Stepping Wedge entry - wierdly enough, though a dangerous drill, it attemps to accomplish the same effect as the Super Phantom in that many people in the camp were pivoting and skidding the top of their turns. By taking an agreesive step with the old inside ski and placing it in a wedge at the very top of the turn you then, to avoid falling must lift the old down hill ski and bring it parallel. This extreme step causes people to ski the very top of the turn. It's an ugly drill. Not as effective as the Super Phantom. You must get off the old outside leg instantly or fall.


I was thinking about it, maybe a stupid idea but here it is:
How about when making this step instead of pointing the tip down (to create a wegde) point it up to create sort of "reverse wedge" "flare" or "fan", you will still need to get off the old stance foot, but instead of wedged entry you closer to a well carved finish.

Any thoughts?
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Postby BigE » Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:33 pm

piggyslayer wrote:
2. Stepping Wedge entry - wierdly enough, though a dangerous drill, it attemps to accomplish the same effect as the Super Phantom in that many people in the camp were pivoting and skidding the top of their turns. By taking an agreesive step with the old inside ski and placing it in a wedge at the very top of the turn you then, to avoid falling must lift the old down hill ski and bring it parallel. This extreme step causes people to ski the very top of the turn. It's an ugly drill. Not as effective as the Super Phantom. You must get off the old outside leg instantly or fall.


I was thinking about it, maybe a stupid idea but here it is:
How about when making this step instead of pointing the tip down (to create a wegde) point it up to create sort of "reverse wedge" "flare" or "fan", you will still need to get off the old stance foot, but instead of wedged entry you closer to a well carved finish.

Any thoughts?


So, you'd be on the outside edge of the uphill ski?
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Well that is the funny thing

Postby John Mason » Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:42 pm

taking the drill even earlier in the turn as is being suggested, you can morph into the super phantom

What I found interesting in this drill, even though it was wedge, was you either got off your old downhill ski and out of the wedge or you'd die. Of course, the "step" to the LTE of the uphill ski while coming out of a turn does the same thing without a wedge and without killing yourself.

In fact, after this drill I asked my instructor about simply getting on to the LTE of the uphill ski at the end of the turn so it's fully engaged as it's rolled over into the new turn and was told that works too.

If you read the scope of Harold and Lito's writings, Harold once said that getting the weight off the old stance foot is the key to the transition. This ugly little wedge move certainly forces that issue (or you die). Even in the SP people can be lazy about it and not really get their weight off their old stance foot.
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Wedge exercise

Postby SkierSynergy » Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:40 pm

John,

I'm glad you had a good time. I only wish that I could have spent a little more time with you than a few meetings on the lift and a beer at the brewpub. Oh well.

I just want to comment on the wedge exercise you described. I saw several teams doing it and even overheard a Canadian coach saying that this movement was the part of the newest thing on the WC circuit. I can't comment on that, but I can comment on whether this is the same as any of the PMTS movements that I know.

A big big difference is that the stepping up into a wedge does not involve a release -- one of the most important concepts in PMTS.
The Super Phantom works the way it does precisely because it uses an exaggerated inversion action of the new free foot (a releasing movement) to move the CM into the new turn and roll the new stance ski on edge. In a super phantom the transfer comes first, but then what follows is a release movement.

In the wedge drill, there is no release and therefore I find it hard to compare it to anything in PMTS. Sure it gets you off your old stance ski, but more important is HOW you get off the stance ski. Sure it makes you quickly move your skis back into parallel, but that is because the position it puts you in sucks so much.

I also would not describe it as "skiing the top of the turn" in the sense of "carving high in the C." The movement you describe is more like what Ron LeMaster refers to as "redirection of ski" at the top of the turn -- (see his 2004 presentation on his website),

I think this is very very different than anything in PMTS.
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More clarification of wedge drill

Postby John Mason » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:36 pm

more clarification of wedge drill is in order

Good comments Jay.

I'm not sure how others were teaching it but there is a context missing here:

1. That Step to the new turn move is an old move in racing - not a new one and the coaches at this camp discouraged any such move. This means the wedge excersize I described was - drum roll - a negative movement in that you must never do it once you get the point the drill was trying to make. So, though the drill creates a step in a new direction and you must release the old ski or die, you are not to actually ski this way in the gates.

2. This drill was introduced because my training partner specifically was sliding with rotary actions at the top of the turn instead of carving early in the turn. The Wedge action described was done maybe 20 degrees off from straight across. In other words at the time it is done your downhill ski is going straight across then your uphill ski is stepped about 20 degrees down the hill and all weight is instantly shifted to it. You must get that old ski up and over parallel instantly and then the turn progresses somewhat normally.

It was emphasized strongly that this was just to create a sense for a person what carving the top of the turn feels like. This individual in my ski group was not carving prior to this drill till the bottom third of the turn.

Once she had the feeling for this upper part of the turn carving action, then coaching returned to get the weight onto the uphill ski before the old turn is ended and then roll that new inside foot over hard while getting your weight off it. This, of course, is almost identical "speak" to PMTS except there was not a clear mention of being on the LTE of that inside ski (though you would be with that description). So from my point of view I could see the drill as a teaching tool, but it was not being taught as a thing to in any way do in the actual racing.

We were taught minimize upper body movements, up down motions, initiate with foot movements, control the arc of the turn by tipping and pressure. We were extolled against any type of pivot or stepping motion.

So this drill, like much of conventional progressions, had a teaching illustration component and at the same time a negative component that had to be "unlearned" once the drill was accomplished.

This is what I like about PMTS instruction in that you are never given a drill that doesn't carry over fully into your skiing.

That being said, in my ski partners case this drill helped her phase through to the next stage in her skiing in that she was much better carving the upper part of the turn. I would have liked to see a SP drill instead, of course, and that was the movement pattern emphasized right after this drill.

So, just wanted to clarify Jay, and not leave the impression that any type of stepping to change directions was being taught at the camp I participated in. The oppisite was true. Any stepping or pivoting or rotary motions to initate turns was drilled out of people. (they all slow you down and they were going for best times)

I can not vouch or comment on what was being taught in the other race lanes other than to observe that I did not observe anyone doing any stepping motions in the other lanes either. Now in the public lane where some private coaching was going on, I saw any number of odd things being taught. Upweighting comes to mind. But in the race lanes where the fast people were skiing the movement patterns accross camps looked sound and similar.
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Why did I bring this up?

Postby John Mason » Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:42 am

The reason I did this thread was having been mostly PMTS in my training in my 1st year and a half of skiing (now 75 days which isn't bad being from Indiana), I had personally wondered about the dichotomy of drills that seem to teach ways to turn that are the direct opposite to what PMTS teachs.

Pivot slips would appear on the surface to be a drill to teach people how to turn using vast torque from the upper body being countered to the lower body as if this was a goal in turning. Yet, this same race camp I went to last year the actual style of skiing of the best of the participates looks very much like the best of the PMTS skiers.

The Wedge Step for high turn carving is another example. Why would the wedge be used in any case at a hill filled with racers. Curiously, I saw almost no one use a wedge for any type of speed control in cat walks or lift lines. All these racer types do exactly what is taught in HH for controlling speed in these situations. Turn both skies parallel slightly, if there is a cant to the hill, do it in the direction that points slightly up hill, and sideslip to control speed. This can be done without a "hockey stop" and is a gentle manuver that is totally controllable. This is the manuver I taught my brother in law on his first day of skiing where some wondered if it was irresponsible not to teach him a wedge for line speed control. Yet, here on Palmer at Mt Hood no one anywhere was wedging anyplace on the hill.

In any case both of these drills were to teach a principle to be carried into a normal PMTS style carved turn.

In the case of the pivot slips, it's not that you are adding torque to turn your skis from the upper body, but that the turning action caused by carving skies does not turn the upper body. So the intended result is the oppisite of the drill or how some may interpet the drill.

In the case of the wedge step the purpose is to get a feeling of what it feels like to carve the upper part of the turn.

In both drills the other components are negative to the progression are are dropped from top to bottom carved skiing.

It's drills like this, while useful and productive for ski instruction even though they can also at the same time induce a bad habit or movement pattern if not taught correctly, are probaby why PMTS is so effective for people.

Rather than a wedge step the super phantom PMTS progressions of drills teach the same thing with no negative movement pattern to unlearn.

In the case of the pivot slip there are many other drills that can teach a person to keep their upper body facing down the mountain whilst their lower body is carving the turn without implying strong rotary torque is a good way to generates turns.

PMTS - you might call it positive movement teaching system - no negatives allowed though Primary Movements Teaching System works too.

What I found most interesting is that the final outcome being sought was the same as the final outcome in PMTS, just the drills to get there were not as scientifically thought out. The other danger in this type of teaching is that lower level teachers may think the drills are to teach something else (like stepping into a turn or inputing rotary movements to turn) instead of realizing there are negative movements in the PSIA drills that are present in the drill but not to be present in real skiing.
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Re: Why did I bring this up?

Postby BigE » Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:19 am

John Mason wrote:
In the case of pivot slips, it's not that you are adding torque to turn your skis from the upper body, but that the turning action caused by carving skies does not turn the upper body. So the intended result is the oppisite of the drill or how some may interpet the drill.

In the case of the wedge step the purpose is to get a feeling of what it feels like to carve the upper part of the turn.

In both drills the other components are negative to the progression are are dropped from top to bottom carved skiing.



Where did you get this interpretation/defintion of the use of the pivot slip drill? First off, the skis are definately NOT carving -- they MUST be flat. Otherwise, you did them incorrectly. IMO, pivot slips are primarily used to acquaint yourself with fore/aft balance, finding the neutral point of the ski, and developing basic ski and edge feel. You certainly won't ski well if you can't feel your skis!

But "adding torque from the upper body?" How could anyone would think that is the point of the exercise? If you did it like that, you did it wrong! I would dearly hope that an instructor would notice someone doing them that way and correct them. The right way is to move the feet independently of the body -- to learn to ski with your feet. Good pivot slips are the hallmark of good edge control.

I might add that good pivot slips will be unobtainable by those with low core strength.

Re: wedge step, you had mentioned that this was incorporated in the drill sequence because a certain individual was not carving at the top. You also mentioned that no other groups were doing it. This looks like a corrective exercise, designed ONLY to focus on the feel of an early edge for that student alone. It is not designed to teach turn entry itself, and is not part of the usual progression. It's used as an EXAMPLE, not part of an unlearnt progression. Sheesh, imagine a progression that if you do part of it wrong you die!

Since the wedge christie is a part of the progression at a much earlier stage, the student will be familiar with the movement, and so a similar move, in the context of a correction, is appropriate. You build on what you know.
John Mason wrote:
The other danger in this type of teaching is that lower level teachers may think the drills are to teach something else (like stepping into a turn or inputing rotary movements to turn) instead of realizing there are negative movements in the PSIA drills that are present in the drill but not to be present in real skiing.


Sorry -- I simply disagree, but then I do tend to give instructors, even lower level ones, a bit more credit than that. Remember "innocent until proven guilty"? IMO, instructors -- even lower level ones -- don't warrant that sort of doubt.

I do however, agree with the bulk of what you've said.

I'm also arriving at the notion that negative movements that must be unlearnt are not really so bad -- they actually show you what NOT to do. You are intimately aware of them, and if you pay attention, you can avoid doing them. OTOH, if you are completely unaware of them, how do you stop doing them? :wink:
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Big E - taking snippets out of context

Postby John Mason » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:50 pm

your quoting out of context, not what the drill consisted of, but the goal of the drill once you incorporate the aspect of it into the normal racing turn.

In pivot slips - of course - you do them with the skies flat. The purpose was as stated.

Sorry I was not clear.

I'm sure people use pivot slip drills for multiple purposes. I was just sharing what we were told the purpose was in the context of race camp. We did other drills for for and aft balance that were better for that than pivot slips. As I said, we were told pivot slips were to give a person a feel for how the upper body can move independently of the lower body so that you could stay faced more down the hill while the skis are carving in a normal turn. I did not and am not saying you carve while in a pivot slip.

And - we did very fine pivot slips under complete control. It's a fun little drill. The danger with a drill like this is, as I stated, that people may mis-construe that this motion has anything with how to turn the skis.

Wedge Step:

Also - I did not mention that other groups were not doing it. You are not reading my post carefully. Jay had mentioned he saw people doing it on the mountain not as part of a drill but as part of the race skiing style. We all did this drill - all the groups did. I was providing the context for when it was brought up in my group. Though all the groups did it, it was not supposed to be incorporated into the actuall skiing. Anyone doing a "step to turn" was re-emphasized to not do that and to just roll the feet to turn letting the body follow. Not exactly PMTS but pretty close.

Also, you don't understand the violence of the move we were taught. You are calling it a wedge christie. It wasn't. It was a step to a strong carve of that leg. I suppose if the angles were different, the slope were different, what we were being told and shown what to do, this might have been a wedge christie, but it wasn't. The wedge part of this move lasted about 1/10 of a second just as the step occured. At that point you were to immediately lift the new inside leg tail first and bring it parallel to the new edging ski. It was more akin to what used to be taught to racers where you step to your new direction and catch the forcefull balance change of that move.

Where we agree:

Yes - I actually found these drills helpful in the context of how they were presented. A forceful step to a new direction and then being told not to do it at all; certainly the exageration of that move lets you be aware of even a subtle stem entry to a turn better. But, what about the wonder of never picking up the bad habit in the first place by developing your skiing in a progression that has no negative moves to unlearn.

Anyway - I just wanted to clarify - we did indeed do the very traditional flat ski pivot slip drill. Don't confuse what they described the application/purpose of the drill with the drill. (because they were two different things) This stype of PSIA drill often has an application that is not contained in the drill itself, but to teach a feeling or movement that is actually used later. I'm not sure what the top of curve step to carve drill is called. Everyone did it then didn't do it anymore. And that's progress.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:03 pm

John, if what you posted is what you came away with from this camp you wasted your money.

>>> The wedge part of this move lasted about 1/10 of a second just as the step occured. At that point you were to immediately lift the new inside leg tail first and bring it parallel to the new edging ski. <<<

That is a stem christie which was used long ago with straight skis as an entry to a parallel turn.It is a sequential entry, meaning you do NOT do it with both skis at the same time The beginning parallel turn, being a simultanious entry is next.

Next time you find yourself in heavy snow moving slowly, when trying a carved turn would just make you fall over, try the stem christie, especially when carrying a heavy pack.

The difference between a wedge and a stem is that in a wedge the tails of both skis are displaced outward while in a stem only one ski tail is displaced outward. I can by an up stem or a down stem (also referred to as an ABSTEM)

So did you learn anything new?

...Ott
Last edited by Ott Gangl on Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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No - I actually got good value for the money

Postby John Mason » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:21 pm

actually I recommend the camp and what I'm posting here has little do do with what I got out of the camp.

In both of these drills cases, I already can ski facing down the hill or letting my body just cruise and ride the skis or any style turn in between. I also carve the upper part of the turn.

What I personally got out of the camp was a better appreciation of how important fore and aft balance is in a racing turn (agressive short radius turns) and improvement in my line while in the gates.

As you know, Ott, and will point out if I don't, I'm still a beginner skier in many ways. One of the most "ways" I'm a beginner is that I have not had a lot of instruction outside of PMTS. I went to this same race camp last year and didn't run into a lot that was different than PMTS. However, these two drills that were a small portion of the drills and instruction we got were quite different from the type of thing you run into with PMTS. That's the context for me bringing them up.

I found the drills usefull especially as presented. In the Pivot Slip drill and looking at others on other forums discussing it, it's easy to look at it as a rotary drill, which it is and is not. Rotary in the sense that it's one way to learn keeping the upper body still while your lower body rides the carving skis (Note again to BigE - not that you carve at all in this drill because you don't - that was just the point of the drill we were told). It's also useful as BigE states for finding the "center" of a particuallar pair of skies. As presented by our coaches it was not a rotary drill in the sense of turning the skies.

So I was just musing at how these drills were used in a top PSIA run race camp and would never be used in a PMTS camp yet were useful in their contexts.

Just to expand here a bit. Here is another drill you don't normally see in PMTS but the way we were taught it was not in conflict. The thousand steps drill (and the shuffle variation). In this drill (obviously I'm not talking to BigE or Ott as they know all these drills - but to the PMTS folks that have not had a lot of traditional instruction - you alternatly step on each foot while carving your turn. Now this doing it while carving may be a variation that most green slope beginners don't do, but at Mt Hood that's how we were taught it. It was not that the stepping turned you, because the skis were both tipped in this drill and the tipping turned you, but when you do this drill you learn how the edges feel on both skis in a turn rather than just learning how the edges feel on the outside ski, and you will find your fore to aft balance takes care of itself.

Anyway, what I learned most in this camp and took out from it was that the inside leg has a tendency to creep forward while in a turn and that you must consciously keep pulling it back, which also happens to shift your weight forward, to keep for fore to aft balance in the correct position.

Last year when I had only skied 15 days total before the camp I mainly took out that I could trust the skies with speed. Mt Hood on Palmer is classed as a black but is really a "dark blue" slope compared to most places in the west called "black". It's often very icy but I ski out east to so that's not a big deal. So last year that was what I got.

I'm sorry Ott if you think I wasted my money. But fore to aft balance makes the difference in being in control in the steeps and a beginners natural tendency is to not "fall down the hill" so correct fore to aft balance in counterintuitive for a beginner. So for me the camp was great fun and my skiing improved too.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:39 pm

John, I edited my post, please reread. I meant if what you posted was ALL you came away with you wasted our money, but obviously you learned much more...

Glad you had a good time....Ott
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I hope I never have too

Postby John Mason » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:56 pm

Thanks for the clarification on what a stem christie is vs stem entry.

I hope I never have a heavy pack on my back sking or otherwise. My back is my weak link. It determines if I can ski (or walk properly).

I signed up for Aspen mid Jan and Park City/Deer Valley/ in mid March with our local ski club. So my next ski season is starting to take shape. Anyone gonna be around either place let me know.

Oh, here is another thing I learned, I ski Holiday Valley sometimes and there were 3 guys at the camp that said kissing bridge was better. (one of the guys works in the shop at Kissing Bridge part time so they were partial). I grew up in Batavia NY and I was always under the impression from our local ski club that kissing bridge was little. (they would go to swain or bristol usually - but I never went of course)
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Let's ease up on John -- comments of wedge exercise.

Postby SkierSynergy » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:58 pm

Let's ease up on John a little. OK. He's a good guy.

John, Thanks for the clarification. I know that a lot of times when you see camps doing exercises, it's hard to know what the purpose is unless you can talk with the coach/instructor. I take it that you are agreeing that the step-up movement is not consistent with a PMTS model, but are trying to say that the purpose of the exercise was to move people toward something that was consistent with PMTS. I won?t comment on the reasonableness of that effort, since I was not involved and don?t have the big picture. Sometimes one can pick out a movement to try just to make the point that it doesn't work. Your clarifications and comments on the problems with potentially "having to unlearn" movements are well taken.

Being around all the camps that pass through Hood over a summer, I see all sorts of exercises that make me wonder, but maybe that is because I just see them at a distance and don?t really know what is going on.

I didn?t see anyone doing wedge stuff as a part of their actual racing. That would be weird. However, I did watch well established teams work on things that were similar to what you described. One team was working on slow "power plows" (their words). The purpose was something about teaching modulation of weight shift from one inside edge to another and also upper/ lower body separation ? who knows. I have no idea how they thought this was going to be transferred to regular skiing. Another was working on top-of-the-turn pivot that was clearly from big toe edge to big toe edge with no release. The step up isn't anything new, but it has stuck around in the concept of pivoting, or "redirection." You see it in new written sources and you hear it in the commentaries on coverage of races. As I have seen it taught, I don't think it is consistent with PMTS movements.

You also mentioned the extension exercises. I saw lots of teams doing these throughout the summer. Extend hard in the transition; flex hard in the carve. I think this is straight out of ideas related to crossover technique. The site you offered in an epic thread on the subject is excellent in it's clarity about the necessity of extension in the transition for a proper crossover (http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/cross_over.cfm). The idea is that extension of the outside leg during transition is a necessary part of projection of the CM into the new turn. (see http://www.youcanski.com for a good description of this position, especially look at the pictures chosen as exemplars). I think you will also see some of these ideas in some of LeMaster's observations, but less explicitly (e.g., the idea that there is greater edge angle in modern skiing, BECAUSE there is greater inclination ? though other of his observations suggest the opposite).

However, I don?t think any of this is consistent with a PMTS model either. If I understand crossover correctly, it utilizes the opposite chain of movements and causes than PMTS.

Crossover (as described) uses the upper body to lead the CM movement and create the edge change. It's a pendulum-like movement. I think this is what a lot of people (not all) talk about in the concept of projecting the CM.

In PMTS, the new inside foot inverts first causing the CM to move and the upper body reacts with counter balance movements of a strong inside arm, and oblique crunching toward the outside of the turn. All this, along with counter-rotation, works to reduce the tendency to lean and increases edge bite.

I know the difference well because I worked on it all summer. If you commit the upper body and hips into the turn first (diving in), you will have lots more turns where balance is an issue. The body and the skis commit to an angle that is there before you know what the conditions are like. It becomes an all or nothing big move. If everything works and you don?t need to adjust anything, you hook up and carve out of it. If the conditions aren?t as you expected, or they are variable, or you need to adjust anything, you?re out of luck. Worse, I tend not to flex enough for how big I want to go, which makes things even harder. Harald and Diana have been on my case about this tendency. Finally this summer things are starting to change.

Moving the starting point to my feet and letting that release the CM into the turn has greatly reduced the number of falls I have. Set your feet first and then increase flexion to move the CM in more after the feet are set and balanced. In most PMTS literature you will see discussion using terms suggesting a ?release? of the CM into the turn rather than terms like ?projecting? it. I think that is on purpose.

I also think that trying to reduce the inclination and keep the CM closer to the inside edge (while keeping the same edge angles) has produced a noticeable increase in edge bite.
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Re: Big E - taking snippets out of context

Postby BigE » Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:01 am

John Mason wrote:your quoting out of context, not what the drill consisted of, but the goal of the drill once you incorporate the aspect of it into the normal racing turn.

In pivot slips - of course - you do them with the skies flat. The purpose was as stated.

Sorry I was not clear.
...

Wedge Step:

Also - I did not mention that other groups were not doing it. You are not reading my post carefully.

Also, you don't understand the violence of the move we were taught. You are calling it a wedge christie. It wasn't. It was a step to a strong carve of that leg. I suppose if the angles were different, the slope were different, what we were being told and shown what to do, this might have been a wedge christie, but it wasn't. The wedge part of this move lasted about 1/10 of a second just as the step occured. At that point you were to immediately lift the new inside leg tail first and bring it parallel to the new edging ski. It was more akin to what used to be taught to racers where you step to your new direction and catch the forcefull balance change of that move.

Where we agree:

Yes - I actually found these drills helpful in the context of how they were presented. A forceful step to a new direction and then being told not to do it at all; certainly the exageration of that move lets you be aware of even a subtle stem entry to a turn better. But, what about the wonder of never picking up the bad habit in the first place by developing your skiing in a progression that has no negative moves to unlearn.



Apologies, but there was some confusion in the original post, when you mentioned carve and pivot at the same time.....

Also, at the end of the post, you mentioned you did not see any stepping motions in other groups, so I assumed that meant the stem christie was not used at any time...

And yes, I was thinking stem, but typed wedge. my bad.

Sorry if anyone thought my tone was too brutish. That's not my intent.
BigE
 
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